Kit was absolutely on FORM for this one.
Here’s what we cover, including a specific step by step guide to getting started with meditation at 22:00.
00:00 – Intro
00:45 – “Stretching 2.0”
01:45 – we are here today to talk about meditation
03:00 – what kind of mediation is best?
04:00 – basic instructions on how to start meditating
05:30 – learning styles have changed
07:10 – learning from written word
08:15 – follow along stretching programs vs recipe programs
10:15 – I have been meditating for ~35 years
10:50 – the need for simple, follow-along meditation programs
11:00 – what exactly is meditation?
11:45 – the Four Postures of meditation
12:15 – Hat tip to Daniel Ingram
13:45 – The shortening of attention span in modern era
14:15 – the “Six-second Abs” approach to meditation
14:45 – “What do you think the meditation project is?”
17:00 – a surface take on different approaches
19:00 – “Undoing the illusion of self!” and the superficiality of modern takes on meditation
20:00 – “a McMindfulness approach is still better than no approach!”
21:00 – inhabiting the body to develop awareness
21:45 – The unpredictability of psychedelics
22:10 – Kit: let us go into the detail:
23:45 – get started in two minutes!
25:00 – “feel your body” does not connect, for many people
25:50 – Yusef’s experience with Vipassana retreats
26:30 – most meditator’s experience on their first retreat is pain
26:30 – the basic instructions continue
27:45 – the “meditation object”
28:15 – “feel the movements in your body we cal ‘breathing’”
29:00 – meditation is an embodied practise
30:45 – ‘one-pointed’ awareness as alternative; ‘open awareness’
31:05 – “what is happening now?”
31:45 – As you breathe in, what do you feel?
32:00 – a thought will come into your mind
32:45 – “a bad meditation session”
33:30 – “hold your awareness GENTLY on your meditation object
34:30 – “be nice to yourself!
36:30 – stickiness
37:25 – “unsatisfactoriness vs ’suffering’”
38:30 – experiencing sensations IS being present
39:45 – paying attention to what’s actually happening (not what you think is happening!)
41:10 – your body only has one language
41:50 – we are not trained to attend to sensations
42:15 – the most important things in this life are what the body experiences
43: 30 – thought as a ‘time stamp’
44:20 – “Im not a meditation person”
45:50 – “I’m speaking to an audience of typical Westerners”
46:45 – “There’s no such thing as a ‘bad training session’”
49:00 – “I’m a knowledge worker”
49:45 – Kit’s recommendations for Yusef’s practise
50:15 – Lying relaxation/meditation
51:20 – why Kit recommends a lying practise
51:45 – learning meditation is about unlearning many habits
53:00 – Kit’s first insight
53:45 – relaxation is just another habit
55:20 – humans are more doglike, than catlike
56:45 – Yusef on how being relaxed can become the new norm
57:15 – the thought stream
58:45 – Kit’s experience on retreat in Berkeley
1:03:05 – why it’s so important to be able to relax
1:04:05 – “I don’t have to be, or do, anything
1:07:00 – a few quick questions
1:08:00 – pay attention to what’s actually happening now
1:11:30 – importance of comfort in stretching
1:13:30 – life-changing skills
1:14:30 – not adding anything
1:17:30 – breath counting
1:24:15 – experiencing serenity in the body was life-changing
1:24:30 – mantra
1:28:00 – “neural down-regulation”
1:29: 30 – the difference between being relaxed and deeply relaxed
1:31:30 – sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems
1:34:30 – the importance of being aware that one is relaxed
1:35:45 – engaging with reality directly
1:36:10 – difference between non-attachment and detachment
1:37:00 – anger
1:41:45 – the ‘dis-ease’ of being you
1:43:45 – Final question: what should we NOT do?
1:48:00 – what do you want out of your life?
1:51:00 – Kit chastises Yusef’s reading style
1:51:50 – the book Essentialism”
1:52:30 – knowing what you don’t want
1:55:00 – being a beginner by choice
1:58:30 – Rousseau’s great quote
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Good evening. I I’m here with Kit Laughlin. He is a teacher of mine, a friend, and actually he has, his method has been one of the biggest influences on my life and on my training. And we’ve had Kit on the podcast twice before, probably two years apart. And if you haven’t heard those episodes, I would recommend that you go back and listen to them. Really? You have never experienced Stretching until you’ve tried his method. It truly is. Stretching 2.0, and we have an obstacle actually called dr. Stretching 2.0, which was really a summery or my interpretation of his method after having done two of his weekend workshops.
Kit thank you for coming back on a dear friend. It’s a pleasure and you are right. We are friends in a while. I don’t have many friends and I don’t want that to sound like a, you know, a Crow from the heart or anything like that. But the effect is you made people sometimes and there is a connection there that’s all it was to it. And you know, we are definitely becoming friends. And of course the other thing is that we are colleagues. We are interested in each other’s projects, and I’m very pleased that you had had some success with a method to, especially with respect to the back pain. That was, that was very good. We are here today to talk about meditation.
1 (1m 43s):
So Casey, as somebody who, rather than trying to picture a rushed explanation of, of his overall method for you, if you haven’t seen any of the previous podcasts, you need to just go back and check those out. I’ll put the links in the description below, but something that I feel like it does very well is here’s an example of the Charlie Munger quote, take a simple idea and take it seriously. And his books on Stretching relaxation, meditation, they are old truly compendia on those topics. And what we want to dive into today is meditation, the mental or spiritual practice side of the method.
1 (2m 32s):
Why previously we were talking about the physical side of Stretching such a good point in even your introductory a month, just open up so many avenues on my program. If I have any programs at all is about demystifying things that for me has always been something, have a deep interest. And I think in the current era where in many, many people becoming interested in both relaxation and
2 (3m 0s):
Meditation, I think there have been a tremendous temptation in the internet world to immediately start breaking meditation down into questions like, well, what’s your lineage? What type of meditation, or is this all the rest of it? And discussions on those kinds of things can become like so many other internet discussions. My, my evidence is bigger than you are evidence kind of thing, where we are really the discussion doesn’t actually add much light to the situation at all, and really just adds heat. So I would like to say at the outset that those little posts that I put out recently, I think one went up on Facebook on my mind, up on Instagram, they had two elements to them.
2 (3m 48s):
One is the learning how to start meditating, which I deeply believe is the most important part of meditating as in getting started first day, but also getting started with a decent set of simple instructions. I think that is absolutely critical. And we put those instructions out of the other day. I’m still waiting for my and teacher to comment on ’em by the way we may be, we may not yet revise them, or he might tell you that I’ve made some terrible mistakes, but I don’t think I have to be able to get you started and to actually get down on the floor or whether you’re doing a Lying practice or a standing practice or a sitting practice and to actually get started is far and away the most important step you’ll ever take.
2 (4m 32s):
Now we can, we can talk to
1 (4m 34s):
Is the points that people make so much of a faff about looking for the right method or the right style. And it’s a mistake that you see so much with training as well, that people will say in nature, just philosophize and pontificate and masturbate about all these different training methods. None of it, it is worth one ounce of cushioned time in meditation or for 30 minutes in the gym.
2 (5m 4s):
Well, look, we, we, we were speaking about this yesterday. Why don’t we just, just wear, may have a little bit of an introductory chapter about what we’re going to talk about that today. And you are talking about that in respect to a training. And I S I just remember the shape of my head saying it for fuck’s sake. You go into a gym, pick up something heavy, do some reps with perfect form. If you know what a perfect form is, wait a couple of days or three days, and then go back and lift something heavier because of that, that is the secret to weight training. And look at the engagement, the actual doing is far and away, the most important thing. So when you can link it to the little, little instruction, audio that I made the other day, and I think there is some words that goes with that as well.
2 (5m 47s):
And also to, there is a very important video that goes with this, which are made for you the other day. It used to be a paid download. I used to be a massive $2. And remember you bought it at once to daughters. Anyway, it’s called how to sit for meditation. And I just want to talk if I may just briefly about how to use that program, because I realized that we have credited our audience with perhaps we overly credited our audience with being able to sort things out for themselves. But the fact is in the modern era, and I’m not talking down to a million people at all, and I say this, but what has happened in the, in the elementary structuring society and culturally all of our ordinary dialogue between human beings, Facebook and all the other social media have had any men’s affect on the way that people think.
2 (6m 39s):
And it has become clear to me that people are not thinking for themselves as much as they used to do that. That’s the claim that I’m going to make anywhere. And by that, I mean, it is so often the case that people need details and follow a loan instructions to get them going in many, many different areas. These ties now, is that a bad thing? Of course, it’s not a bad thing. It’s just Emilia comments on a change in a way we assimilate that information. And let me just try and explain what I mean by that, but at the Olivia and I, and I know you two can learn things from the written word now that is becoming an increasingly risk, you will set to live it or not.
2 (7m 19s):
Well, at least this is my view. We have people writing to us all the time where what they are writing is a bit like loosening to Donald. Trump’s speaking, it’s incoherent. It’s not, is not clear. It is not possible often to discern exactly what it is that people are asking for. I’m not, I’m being serious here. This is not a way that doesn’t happen all the time, but it’s happening much more open than it used to do what we have done in in fact, even the products that we sell from that website. Now we have, we haven’t dumbed it down at all. In fact, I don’t believe in dumbing anything down, but what we have done is we have built the structure for the programs into the programs themselves, and we’ve decided to make them follow along rather than how we did with the mastery series, which is a series that, you know, well, where we literally gave people all of the recipe elements and asked him to play with all of the exercises in any particular program.
2 (8m 13s):
And some of them had a 20 or 20 to, I think is the highest number. And then we asked him to make notes of which pro, which of those elements affected in the most strongly, which are the most difficult, which are the easiest and so on. And then to literally not down in the exercise numbers and build their own program for themselves. And, and honestly speaking from the heart here that is far and away, the best way to approach any material, if you can do it. But the resistance that we’ve had has been remarkable and a great many people have said, it’s just too overwhelming, you know, 22 exercises. I just, I can’t find my way through that now, to me, that has truly baffling. I just don’t understand that, but I also have to accept the, this is reality and, sorry.
2 (8m 59s):
Sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, no. All I was gonna add to that was when we made the beginner’s series of which were going to change the name of it when we release it, or let me begin. This series of live here are not decided to make that begin a series. Firstly, solo exercise is only, and that’s because of how many people have told us. They’d literally don’t have the partner that they can stretch it now in the era of the pandemic, that is definitely become a more pressing thing. But then I, I remember riding back to this guy one side, what do you mean you, you, you can’t find someone a stretch it to you live on a desert Island or something that you go on your own, but what it is is he just didn’t want to ask for someone else’s help.
2 (9m 42s):
And he didn’t have a close on a friend nearby to get that friend to sit in a deck late, for example, which has a kind of another thing to ask a stranger to do it. I agree with that completely. So what we’ve done is we’ve, we have taken the requirement for a partner exercises out of, at the beginning of the programs. And instead of giving people a recipe that they have to select the ingredients from, we have simply made it follow along. So each of the programs at 15, and so I think the longest one is 25 minutes long. It’s not as free. I’m not, not advertising this to listings at all, but newly to say with respect to the meditation project, I I’ve been a meditator for a very long time now for 30 something.
2 (10m 24s):
I dunno thirty-five years maybe. And I have realized that in the instruction that I’ve been lucky enough to receive from some truly excellent teachers over the years, they was a need and a pressing need right now to come out with some really, really basic instructions, just like the beginning of Stretching program and where the basic instructions are simple to follow along. You just put the recording on and you just follow along now, before you ask any detailed about that, let me just add one other thing, because there is a great, I think misconception about what meditation is and we haven’t spoken about it. And I’m very interested to hear what your thoughts are on.
2 (11m 4s):
What do you think the project is all that, but let me just intro to introduce this type of the conversation by saying this is a very famous suitor at all, or the sands group or equivalent as Sutra, or we say in English and called the Satipatthana. So which talks about meditation and detail and its one of the very few sutras that actually talks about it meditation. And even now it’s such a big part of Buddhism. That’s interesting that we can explore the reason why for that perhaps, but in that sense, the speaker, the Buddha, he talks about the Four Postures of meditation. And this is what I wanted to talk about it briefly.
2 (11m 46s):
I should also add this and this is the most important one. Posture is not privileged over the other and a full Postures of meditation as a standing and moving Lying and sitting here they are the Four Postures. Now, if you’re think about it for a moment, What what he might be arguing for. The, and this is my own deep belief. There’s actually no place and no activity where you can’t practice. That is those for Postures exhaust human movement.
1 (12m 17s):
So this is interesting that we spoke with Daniel Ingram a couple of years ago, who is an emergency medicine physician who basically completed meditation. No, he, he got to the, the, the point in his Vipassana practice with a decentralized his consciousness and we have a, we have a full podcast or not. You are interested in is subjective experience is really fascinating. And he says that he, he obviously spent several years in total I’m meditating with several months on a retreat, but used a lot of is time in the hospital. As practice ’cause he said, what we do not realize is that even when we’re working in a job, that seems very cerebral.
1 (12m 57s):
There’s so much time in the day where you are walking down the hospital corridor or cumulating someone or whatever, what do you actually can really inhabit the individual sensations in what you’re doing now? Just there was a couple of other things that you mentioned that I was a lot, have a lot of richness in that. One of them was that you said that you’ve had to adapt the program. ’cause over time, you’ve noticed the people have less agency or people aren’t as able to look out a set of generic instructions and make it their own. And I’ve definitely found that the clients that are most successful are the ones that they take the program and they turn it in, they fit it into their own. Should I do it when they do make it that right? And to put that stamp on it, but it’s, it’s the luck of playfulness is more of a systemic problem.
1 (13m 45s):
I think just with the fact that since say the 1990s, when the average attention span was 17 minutes, and now it’s about 90 seconds or 12 seconds of something it’s, it’s been absolutely systemically destroyed by. The a lot of The the technology and unfortunately, expectations of fallen in line with that too. So as you said, people are less willing to read the written word about taking it instructions of things, but also they’re expecting faster results with stuff, especially with things like meditation. And as a result, the people who get the most publicity are the ones that are totally willing to abandon or, or moral fiber and hate the lowest common denominator of saying meditate like a advanced as a monk in 12 minutes, or use this like binaural beats program and achieve this.
1 (14m 38s):
Or, and it is exactly the same as the six minute OBS of or six second OBS of meditation world. But I realized I’m kind of, there is a lot in there. So what I, how, how do
2 (14m 52s):
We want to take this? Oh, why don’t we start at the very beginning and just talk about, well, let me ask you, what do you think the meditation project is? And look, we should also add that there are thousands of different types of meditation. And in fact, there’s an, a school of Buddhism in Japan. I don’t remember its name where the explicit pursuit of all of their practices, including meditation is to make money. And it is it’s, it’s a strange thing to put us on. There are some very interesting strands out there. Let me ask you, what do you, why would you recommend to anyone that they consider sitting on the cushion and look like, Oh, I want to just comment on that two standing and moving I’m Lying and we’ll get back to the lineman in the moment, because I, I believe for most Western is a developing a Lying meditation practices actually more valuable to them than a sitting one.
2 (15m 45s):
But lets come back to that a second. It’s critical. I will explain why in detail, but let me ask you for us and please talking just over I’d made, what do you believe are the meditation project is designed to do and why should we engage in it
1 (16m 0s):
Is this depends on the audience that I’m speaking to. So I was asked, I was on the big picture, medics Podcast last week where the audience is junior adopters, Medix, and they were asking what’s the benefit of meditation. And so for them you have to think you have to appeal to the, the evidence-based desire behind them. And you say, well it improves emotional regulation and pain tolerance and improves cerebral blood flow and distress. And you know, so in that case you got to almost sell it in the language that will improve concentration, you know, as it sell the benefits that that person would, would benefit from. Because if you then if you go off the deep end and you say, well lets to undue the illusion of self and at the end of those suffering, most people are going to be alive.
1 (16m 47s):
Who is this guy? Yeah. You know, this sounds like its having a psychotic event. Do you think it depends on the audience?
2 (16m 57s):
Look it, yes it does. And that’s if I might say, Oh, that’s a very wise perspective because ah, if you read enough or listen enough to the commentaries and also the What are alleged to be on the original utterances of the Buddha in all of the different services that are recorded, you will see that he does exactly the same thing that is to say he positions the worthwhileness of the system, the Buddhists system. And it is a system that’s a secular, it’s not a religion, even though it is the official religion of Thailand, it’s not a religion, it’s actually a system, a deep wide system, which has many aspects to it, of mastering yourself for want of a better term.
2 (17m 44s):
And it’s very hard to explain that because as you say, the teaching of Unata or not itself is something that just, it would seem absurd and bizarre and completely unattractive as an idea to someone who has no experience in this system. So your point about tailoring, the explanation of the worthwhileness of board of meditation to the audience is a very, in my opinion, a very, a sound thing to do.
1 (18m 15s):
It has taught very much in a kind of Silicon Valley style circles as something that is it, 70% of CEOs have some kind of meditation practice. But I imagine that reasons for doing it was very different. As you said, like some people do it as a moneymaking thing to enable them to cut out destruction and improve that output. And you know, I don’t think it is not to say that anyone of those outcomes IS is a wrong motivation to do it. But something that Daniel Ingram mentioned is we have to be aware that we are employing spiritual technologies here that are really designed to undo the illusion of self.
1 (18m 55s):
And without knowing that and without kind of being aware that this is one of the, it’s not just a side effect or a, a risk, it is the goal. And so if you, if you do something without realizing that this could happen, then you could end up finding yourself in quite dodgy territory. And I think a lot of New York mindfulness kind of programs don’t you allude to this
2 (19m 18s):
That’s true. We don’t need to name the ones that we are talking about because they are so popular now. Yeah. So I, I would much, rather than not actually really put some names on the McMindfulness and movements and there are a number of them that yes, you arrive and, and, and at least two, to the extent of my understanding, many of the more, some, at least two of the fundamental perspectives have the original teachings. And that’s also another loaded thing, isn’t it? We’re doing, we find the original teaching the statins. Well, there are some very good writers and, and practitioners around that.
2 (19m 58s):
It could be argued that in the, in the very instrumental pursuit of let’s say at a greater productivity or improved sleep for all the things that meditation has, there is evidence to support its effectiveness in these domains is really missing out on what it is really about. Having said that I still think it’s much better for people to start and to begin the meditation practice with a McMindfulness or whatever they’re exposed to because for whatever reason that happens to be on their life’s journey, the FORM of the teachings they’ve been exposed too. And that’s no problem. ’cause once the message and get some kind of have traction in you, they’ll be a very natural desire to want to go deeper.
2 (20m 45s):
Don’t you think? Yeah, absolutely.
1 (20m 48s):
And I think this is why I really favor your method with inhabiting the body to develop awareness using Stretching as a tool, because it means that you are the agent in doing it. You are, you’re the one that’s in control and it’s much more, it it’s empowering for the individual, but it also means that you take it as far as you want to go. Whereas some of them are more invasive approaches for I’m kind of spiritual technologies are the ones that are either slightly more forced, slightly more simple, no synthetic, but interventional list as well as obviously things like psychedelics, which are like somehow is described as strapping yourself to the front of a rocket with no guidance system.
1 (21m 35s):
Like it’s, it’s a very powerful, and that could take you to go to a place that is, that is what you want to go. But also it’s so unpredictable and it could just drop you in a place of psychosis or in the dark elements of your unconscious mind without really having the tools to be able to navigate that. Whereas we do our method, you use, you have much more oriented and are able to take it as far as you want to go.
2 (21m 59s):
Oh, I agree. So that would let us, I’ll just adjust my picture a little bit. Now I’m going to stand up, let us now go into the detail of exactly it and the thing that you are calling my method of course is not my method. It’s it is an approach. I’ll take a step back. It’s the goal of the, not the goal, the starting point of any meditation practice is actually an explicit acknowledgement that I design to train in my mind. I mean that, I don’t know, it, it doesn’t sound terribly attractive perhaps, but because the relationship that most people have with what’s going on between their ears or the constant chatter, or have their own mind, the relationships that most people will have with that is that what is going on in my mind is actually real.
2 (22m 51s):
And the reason why that is so is because in the person that has an untrained mind, that there is no alternative perspective to experience the thought stream from this is a really, what’s the word I’m looking for. It is a very subversive idea. And if you really do get into the Buddhist system, you’ll find its one of the most radical systems that the planet has ever put forward for the transformation of an individual consciousness.
2 (23m 35s):
But as you say, it is a little bit in one sense that self directed. So come back to that later, the method is very simple in, in one sense, it’s extremely, so let me talk about that and this and people can just follow this prescription and actually get started meditating in two minutes now, not to have success with in two minutes, but the basic method itself is not hard to understand. So let me describe it. You adopt a sitting posture and this can be done on an ordinary kitchen share or any charitable or one that allows you to sit up reasonably straight is normally the recommendation. So your, your bottom line is on the seat as a chair and your bank is not supported by the chair and in the beginning.
2 (24m 20s):
And when I say it in the beginning of it in the first 20 or 30 seconds, simply move you hips around for them backwards and maybe a left or right, and then lift your chest a little bit and bring the chin back in so that they had. And Nick moved further over in the center of your balancing and so on and just have a feel of your body in that position. That is the first instruction. And now what’s interesting to me in English and to many, many people grapple with these instructions is, and this is why I spent, you know, 35 years in my life developing the Stretching system that we have now is because many modern people, the first instruction to feel your body literally does not connect.
2 (25m 6s):
They can hear the words, feel my body, they understand the meaning of the individual components, so that sentence, but they don’t actually feel that are in bodies.
1 (25m 19s):
It’s amazing is that, that is actually a continuum that you go from that you write that before starting any of this kind of work that I’d done with you, you, you know, one of my practice has been very much in that cup, on the sensations that I felt, I thought, well, that’s the maximum level of granularity that I can feel, but looking back, it was really just gross sensations that are really blunt stuff. And then you can go deeper and deeper. And obviously during a 10 day Vipassana retreat where you are fully focused on that, the little atomic movements within your body, you realize there’s so much richness in what you can feel
2 (25m 58s):
Well, and there’s, there’s a universe inside you, simple as that anyways. So that’s the first thing is sitting in a chair in your ceiling, your worry. And let’s say at the beginning of the feelings, I’m not clear and we’ll come back to that because for most meditators and your experience on that 10 day retreat, you may have some comments on this. Most meditators overwhelming experience on their first retreat is pain somewhere in the body or is that, is that kind of thing we’ll come back to that will come back to that. And then we’ll come back to that. And please remind me about that because whilst as well as physical pain is a common experience on a retrade, it is complete.
2 (26m 43s):
And, and as you know, that was my entry into teaching meditation in Buddhist monasteries in Asia was taking that set of a teachings to the, the home of Buddhism and having, working with students sometimes the long-term meditators who have been meditating for as long as I have, but to bring that physical component so much more explicitly into the meditation practice, completely transformed there and practice because what it does and you’ve already commented on this, it brings you out of your head, which is where thinking happens some nice people and into your body. Now, two things happen here, but we’ll come back to that because I’d like to just briefly encapsulate them as it, otherwise I’ll end up talking for an hour and still paid.
2 (27m 28s):
We’ll be at the feeling of the body States. So say you sitting in a chair. So we are still 10 seconds into your first experience with starting to learn how to meditate. You’re sitting in a chair, you can perhaps seel your body and bones against a hard word with the chair. If you are sitting on a wooden chair and then we posit, what’s called the meditation object. Now, as you noted IM your own podcast on meditation, the standard recommendation for the meditation object is where there’s no meat described as the breath. And also to that, there is some terrible instructions that even about watching the breath, don’t watch the breast I’m going to say, and that is a serious misdirection. And yet it’s the very first experience of the very first instruction that many people have in their practice.
2 (28m 13s):
And its one of the reasons why the practice does not bear the fruit, that it can be the instruction that I much prefer.
3 (28m 23s):
2 (28m 26s):
The movements in your body.
3 (28m 28s):
We call breathing, breathing is a word is a concept. It’s not breathing it in.
2 (28m 36s):
So, and just like in that old gen parable about the finger pointing at the moon, we want the experience. And if you want the experiences or something, you saw it, I should say meditation is an embodied practise and now everyone says that, but what does that actually mean? It means that the body that you are in right now, sitting on that chair, feeling your bottom lines, that is the body that we will meditate with. No one else’s none. Others, not at any different point in time or space. This one sitting on the chair right now, my body.
3 (29m 14s):
All right. So
2 (29m 18s):
Some people recommend closing your eyes or softening your gaze if that is that connects with you on that. But all of the practices can be done with the eyes wide open too, if you want is just that for most people, ’cause the visual cortex is their main mode of stimulation. These days, it’s probably
3 (29m 34s):
Helpful to reduce
2 (29m 37s):
The stimulation in the visual cortex. And then the easiest way to do that is just lower your gaze to a mate or two in front of you. And then let it softly go out of focus. We will come back to that because you can do it with eyes closed as well.
3 (29m 52s):
Okay? So as you said that
2 (29m 55s):
The feeling of a bottom lines on the side, you become aware, we will become aware of how to direct yourself to the movements that we call breathing. You will become aware of that. In fact, your body, while sitting on this chair is anything but still it’s actually a moving subtly all the time. And we can put some labels on some of these movements that might be helpful. For example, when you breathe in, I feel what happened in the body when you breathe in or Find the movements in the body that we would label breathing in. Now we don’t prescribe these things because some people for example, would much prefer the sensation of the breath at the nostrils.
2 (30m 40s):
So we might describe that as a kind of one point in a concentration or it might be that the person is trying these instructions to the first time is actually aware of the space of the whole room that they are in. That one is not better than the other. The question to be answered at all instance in your practice is what is happening
3 (31m 4s):
Now. It is
2 (31m 6s):
So much more subtle and it’s so much simpler than everyone will tell you. But what you’ll observe, as soon as you identify out of the nostrils in the narrower focus or your tummy, which is my preference, most people can feel it on me or what I’m using tummy in the non anatomical sense of just feeling the body from the Ridge down to the hips, lets say that part of the body that we might, if we’re going to be technical and we might say your abdomen, feel what happens in your abdomen as you breathe in. And this is fascinating and it’s, and so lets say, as you breathe in, you feel something I don’t want to preempt what you might feel, but as you, as the breath goes out, it’s a different something.
2 (31m 53s):
It’s a related something, but it’s a different something.
3 (31m 57s):
And as you say,
2 (31m 58s):
It’s rich, it’s rich. And not only is it rich, there is no limit to how deeply you can go into it. But here is what happens.
3 (32m 8s):
If you will sit in
2 (32m 12s):
The feeling is I suggests at some point in your practice, we might be 30 seconds into the first minute or, or may not be a minute in a thought, we’ll come into your mind. You will notice that thought has come into your mind. And that is your first act of meditating. Meditating is about noticing what’s happening. And so as I speak about it in this little introduction to meditation, I’ve heard it, many, many people say, well, it was, I had a really bad meditation practice today and the teacher will say, what, what do you mean a bad meditation practice? What happened?
2 (32m 53s):
And the person will say, well, I noticed that I was being constantly distracted. And if you are working with a good teacher, I should say something like that. Well actually that is meditation noticing that you are being distracted and yes, when you, when you, when you become aware that your awareness has followed a thought and noticing that you’re awareness is no longer in the movements in your body, because remember that’s the primary meditation object and your task as far as you can, is to hold your awareness and the critical next word, hold your awareness. GENTLY on your meditation object because its possible.
2 (33m 35s):
And I’m saying this happened in a million times that people with strong concentration and, and usually a good intellect as well, they will screw themselves down and literally force themselves to follow the sensations. So that’s that just being too harsh on yourself and this, and believe me, that the data into a book will discuss that later. Perhaps. So my suggestion is when you notice that your awareness has moved from the sensations in your body, which we are setting ourselves up somewhat out officially, I agree as our primary object, when you notice that your attention has moved towards the thought stream and you’re starting to engage in what it is that you are thinking about it.
2 (34m 20s):
And then you remember, Oh, that’s right, I’m meditating. I’m supposed to be aware of what’s happening in my body in terms of the movements, then don’t be harsh on yourself. Just smile to yourself. I just love to say this is that mind again? You know, doing the thing that it does as well, which has to distract us all of the time and in the beginning.
4 (34m 45s):
2 (34m 45s):
You might find that it’s very difficult to do that. Please say to yourself and to so many people to do this, Oh, I can’t meditate on just to distract it all the time and know what, what is the practice is simply the, is as you notice it more often that you are being distracted by your thoughts, you smile to yourself and you gently bring your awareness back to whatever your meditation object is and you GENTLY stay with that and stay with that until something else happened that at all, and what’s happening in the process of you are noticing that your awareness has been drawn away by your thoughts and then gently bringing your awareness back to your meditation object.
2 (35m 40s):
You are strengthening your capacity to concentrate. This is a profound gift to give yourself. Now I’m not talking about strengthening capacity to concentrate so that it can be more productive or anything of that as other instrumental things that people so often talk about in relation to this. No, I’m talking about being more aware of the processes inside you that even more useful in your mind, that’s what I’m talking about. And it does have all sorts of benefits and me not to talk about those. Like if we have a talk about, for example,
4 (36m 21s):
2 (36m 21s):
That one, I’ll mention it. Now everyone in their lives has some aspect of themselves, which they experience is sticky and bought out by that. I may let me talk from personal experience. That’ll make the point clearly. And simply I hope that for many, many years, The big problem that I had personally was irritations slash anger, always looking so when things were not satisfactory and that I used that word deliberately because I remember talking to a student at once and I use the word that the Hollywood Duca, which translates is normally translated into English as suffering. And this guy said, he looked at me, it’s go on planes.
2 (37m 3s):
It’s not a suffering in my life and just looking at his face and I’m saying the science of suffering. And so, and so I reframed what I said. I said, okay, now I was suffering, but what about unsatisfactoriness? And he just cracked up and he said, there’s plenty of that set up the way this, again, this is the trap of woods. We do not want to get trapped in some con a conceptual understanding of this practice. And I know it is a direct and bodied physical practice. And I will add one thing. And then please ask me some specific questions. What was in the beginning?
2 (37m 42s):
Meditated does not know yet because they have no experience of it except perhaps for X of contemplation, which is manifested by themselves at some stage in your life where you are sitting, watching nature, watching the men come up or something or whatever it is. And you realize that you are actually lost in the direct experience of that thing. And people will label such experiences is mystical, ecstatic experiences. In fact, those experiences that wonderment are available to you all the time, but in order to access them, you have to listen to their neighborhood because they are critical.
2 (38m 23s):
And this is the topic of our contribution to this art. The when we direct, you drew your attention to the sensations in the body that we call breathing. And this is not an obvious thing, but when you actually experience sensations in the,
3 (38m 41s):
What do you present meaning for you,
2 (38m 47s):
You are not in your thoughts stream and the thought stream. I should add this detail as well. And people will probably find this very objectionable, but
3 (38m 55s):
2 (38m 58s):
In the thought stream sense, thoughts are never experienced in the present. They are always thought about the future of future, which may or might not come, or their thoughts are about a task. Even if we’re talking about the past of owning a second or two ago,
3 (39m 18s):
2 (39m 19s):
Do not occupied by the present moment. And so many people that is a truly shocking thing to contemplate for a moment. Well, what do you mean? And then someone’s mind will just go along this path. Well, does that mean when I become a good meditator, I’m going to lose the capacity to use my mind to constructively or productively or what am I learning this the six years that I’ve just been at med school that suddenly vantage. If I became a meditator, of course now what will be taken away from your mind is it’s obsessiveness. Now, when I say obsessiveness, what do I mean? Well, food listening to this conversation has not had the experience of waking up at three o’clock in the morning, thinking about something and not being able to put that thing down.
3 (40m 8s):
Well, yeah, it is everyone, right? Yep.
2 (40m 13s):
If someone has not had that experience, I want to talk to them because maybe they’re like toughness on Barbara and I, and at that time in to this world fully enlightened a floating down the youngest river or on a Lotus. Awesome. That’s possible, but I’d not met anyone like that in my own life. The people that I regard has having transformed themselves and that’s, as far as I go, I went talk about enlightenment because I think that’s a totally fanciful thing to even consider as a person who’s contemplating, will I begin to meditate or not? The most important thing by far in the meditation instruction is to do it. That’s the first thing. And secondly, to really pay attention to what is actually happening and not what you think is happening and they want you to do this most honestly with yourself is to attend to your physical sensations that are on cause I’m going to make another big claim here in the claim is your body has only one language.
2 (41m 11s):
And that is the language of sensation. And most of the sensations in the beginning of your experience on a three axis or not a three Xs, that’s incorrect on a continuum where you have an unpleasant sensations at one end, you have pleasant sensations at the other end. And somewhere in the middle here, sensations are neither pleasant or unpleasant in the beginning. Your capacity to distinguish between these things is limited. And that’s because we are in our culture. Us is not trained to either to attend to us sensations except when the painful and you know, they are bothering us or they are disturbing this in some way.
2 (41m 56s):
Then in fact, what most people don’t realize is that your body is talking to you all the time and it’s language is a sensation. And why should we care about this? I mean, I know I have met plenty of people in here regarding their body is fundamentally and impediment to doing what it is they want to do. You know, I can stay awake along an ad for blah, blah, blah. I will argue that the only things that are really important to you in your own life, the things that the body experiences. And let me just describe what I mean by that is the experience of sexual pleasure, for example, or the experience of eating good food or the experience of holding someone who do you love and who loves you.
1 (42m 42s):
This is something that you, you mentioned in your life in the last episode where you said that it is only the body that can experience the presence. And you said it just before the thought is always a marker of time. It’s always the symbol of something slightly in the future or the past, even if we’re thinking the thoughts at the time. And I think it’s a bit of a weird claim to make until you experience. And I think the only time that I truly felt that as a, at a real intuitive level was the 10 day retreat. When I felt that every thought has a physical counterpart and vice versa. And it’s almost as if the thought that is associated with any sensation is like the timestamp it’s the The market in time, all of the physical sensations.
1 (43m 35s):
So that, that method that you’ve really clearly described that hopefully anyone listening, who is procrastinating about meditation in what, what style to do, or, or has heard some of these previous recommendations that people are saying, watch the breath or whatever, and not really good at it. Hopefully that was enough to stimulate them to do it or not. And most people listening to this will have been lifting weights for at least some time. And so it’s going to seem, you know, if someone came up to you and said, Oh, I’m thinking of starting to lift weights, but I didn’t know whether to do a daily undulating periodization or a linear progression, or five-thirty what you’d be like, Oh, well, let me just go in the Jim and just do something just to five by five.
1 (44m 17s):
And they’ll be like, Oh, what is it really optimal? Or you’d be like, Oh, it doesn’t matter. It just, just get in and do some things. So I think that that message just stay on the cushion and do it. And, and you, you also addressed my, what was going to be my next question, which was, if someone says I’m not a meditation person or I can’t switch off, then you know, you you’ve, you’ve dealt with it. And I think this comes down to the personality type of the individual, that if you have someone who has you said is a very type a, and is used to getting results with things by brute force and a white knuckling that they will try and like grind their way through meditation. And that almost paradoxical effect of that is that meditation is, if you do that, you are agitating.
1 (45m 5s):
The mind is almost like you’ve got a glass of water with some Sunday. And by your trying to like force the sign to stay still by shaking it more, by adding more energy into the system, rather than letting it go. And actually that letting go process can be harder for people of the opposite disposition. Whereas as you said, I think on the WWE, the workshop that in Thailand, people are more of the relaxed bordering on lazy disposition, that the ones that meditate. And so they need more of the hard line type of stuff. So it’s about also the regulating recognizing what is your personality type and what is needed in your practice right now,
2 (45m 48s):
I’m assuming that I’m speaking to an audience. So a typical Westerners and people might hate such a simplification and such a generalization, but generalizations or generally truth and use, and not being an exception as a listening to you. You might not fit this perspective. The reason I will come back to something now that I glossed over before, but the reason why I think that most Westerners, and I’m assuming that we are talking about Westerners, it is labeled as a type, a type, rather than someone who is afflicted by what the scriptures called Sloss and tapa.
2 (46m 29s):
And they’re such a beautiful words because it immediately, you can see why am I, which type in my mind at the time that will, that is completely comfortable landing around on a couch and procrastinating my entire life away. Of course, I’m caricaturing here, but to make a point or I go, go, go, go type a personality where I literally force reality to fit what I want that I would, if I was talking about my former self, I would say the latter taught it for sure.
1 (46m 59s):
When you, you said that someone who has a session and they’re like, Oh, it was a terrible session. Cause I was just dropped it all the time. That’s a little clue that someone is have that type of personality where they are beating themselves up. And they’re really self critical, but it’s the same as saying, Oh, I went to the gym and it was a terrible session because it did loads of reps and a hard, and it will, it was fine. Okay.
2 (47m 21s):
Yeah, it is completely fine. And this is something that we’ll, we have lots of people on our forums as, you know, really hardcore strength training athletes or people who are in bodybuilding or a similar, very similar to your audience. And there is no such thing as a bad training session. In fact, in fact, it would be really, if we were to get down to this and this is good and bad as such, we have this tendency to jump straight in and jut make judgements or label things in this pejorative way that if I’m not from my experience, now, there are only things that are useful or not useful or not good or bad, but what do I mean by that?
2 (48m 4s):
Well, in the pursuit of whatever goal you have, and let’s say for at least some of your fellow students, the goal will be hot today. Atrophy, it’s very easy to measure. I use literally getting stronger. I use literally putting on muscle weight or not, and all training regimens can be ranked or a ranked against the effectiveness of producing that outcome. That’s all. Yeah. How does that make sense?
1 (48m 36s):
Is that it does it, so if this goal or does it not so something that you mentioned that there as well, and I’ve, I’ve, I, I’ve got a few kind of quick fire questions for you that it will just get to as well. But a recommendation that last time we, we charted in London, we were talking about this, why this difference in kind of Western and Eastern disposition’s or that this last tour type of thing. And particularly with relation to knowledge workers. Now I’m a knowledge worker in both of my jobs, Madison on propane, both are very cerebral and they are, they involved a lot of computer time. I think people don’t realize that being a doctor is 95% clerical on a computer.
1 (49m 20s):
And even in the interactions with patients, it’s, it’s, it’s obviously very, very neck up because of all of the bits of information you’ve got to weigh up. Now, you said to me, you said it in your case, I don’t think you have a bottleneck is concentration and meditation. I think you are a bottleneck is the body and your recommended that I’d go away and do six months of Lying relaxation, which I did. And it was just a huge improvement from, and you said we would go back to Lying meditation. One of the big insights that I, that I got from not just before we go and start is what you said about breathing.
1 (50m 3s):
For example, is it processed? It’s not a, there’s not a thing and Lying on the floor. It sounds so stupid. But when you think you’re lying on the floor, at least for me, it takes a good 15 minutes until I’m actually lying on the floor. It was people, you know, that you really, you are just, when you, for the first 10 to 15 minutes of Lying on the floor, you are acting like, even when you think you’re relaxed, it’s only by comparison like 20, 30 minutes later that you are like, Oh, here we go. Like now on the floor is holding me.
2 (50m 39s):
That’s precisely it. It’s just so many things to say, look, I’ll, I’ll cut it short because we’ve already been talking for quite awhile, but how many people are listening? I’ve had this experience at the beginning of land off about something. Then the person that told them, you have to say is for God’s sake, just to relax. And your response is going to be some of that. What do you mean I am relaxed, right?
1 (51m 4s):
Have you heard that saying never in the history of telling someone to calm down, how have they calmed down that it was being affected? That’s why it was so let me take a I’m boiling.
2 (51m 13s):
Now, let me know. You can see my thing on it
1 (51m 19s):
Always happens in the hospital.
2 (51m 21s):
Oh, that’s been a curiosity. So the reason I recommend the reason I’m Berkeley and recommending developing a Lying relaxation practice, which is actually meditation is just a different form of it. Is that for most Westerners who do find it hard to get out of their heads and find it well sometimes completely alien the idea of connecting with their body, except in terms of the instrumental terms that you are talking about. Like I’ve been in coding 35 pound dumbbells. Now I’m going to move on to a 40 pound dumbbells. Yes. That is connecting with your body. That it’s in a very limited sense. And it’s using a, a tiny fraction of the available bandwidth is how I would put it.
2 (52m 6s):
It’s actually let me text, if I can say learning how to meditate is actually about unlearning a whole bunch of unconscious habits that you have, which you cannot not have being a westerner living today. And what, what people simply don’t realize is that the only experience with themselves as normal as usual, this has me, I’m like this. And I’m like that none of those things is accurate. In fact, and it’s not until do you have the deep, deep experience of being fully relaxed, that will, that will be your first insight.
2 (52m 47s):
In fact, and people talk about meditation and they’re in schools and meditation, and one of them is called insight. Meditation will be attached to it, which is the talk that you have studied. The first insight that I personally had was that I was never relaxed, never relaxed. And I’m sure that that descriptor or describing, you know, a great many people are listing, although you might think you’re relaxed, what does being deeply relaxed actually feel like? So firstly, what does it feel like? And secondly, this is the most important part. And it’s identical in the way to the development of the concentration that will come as a result of GENTLY bringing new thoughts back to the meditation object a thousand times is that when you do have the capacity and the direct experience, I should say for us, and then secondly, the capacity to be deeply relaxed, and this will not sound realistic, but it is.
2 (53m 47s):
I promise you, relaxation is just another habit being tense, which is the most people stay at and their body is physically hard. When you touch them, all the muscles in their body are held rigid. That’s just a habit. You’ve learnt two, that you were not aware that you were learning that habit. This is such a profound thing is once you have the experience of being taped, they’re relaxed, two things will happen, firstly, in your normal daily life, if you will notice when you’re attention levels arise and you will feel your shoulders came out around your ears and you will just say, Oh, well, I can let that go there. And secondly, to feeling of being deeply relaxed is something as crazy as that sounds that you can choose to return too at anytime.
2 (54m 35s):
And what you notice As again, this capacity, it strengthens is a sailing relaxed who is actually way better. It feels way better in my mind works better. I think more clearly, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. When I’m more relaxed. And look, if anyone in the audience is a martial artist or a box or, or somebody who was in the combative sports, and I’m speaking with an amateur boxer myself, if I was never a very, a good runner, I will also have to acknowledge that. But I did learn one or two things, but in fact that you can not move quickly unless your relaxed. That’s why we used the cat as a model and NOT dogs.
2 (55m 18s):
As I’ve mentioned too many times, we are a much more doglike in the same way that we are. We care much more about what other people think about us than cats, cats. Normally they’re more, solipsistic, they’re more self referencing.
1 (55m 33s):
We very rarely. So it was this as well. So in, in the boxing, the boxing example, you don’t, you know, want to bet that books are a few, two tents in the social example with the dogs. If you are always seeking approval, you know, this is the standard thing of like, you are trying to chopper a girl that you fancy in a few tenths and, you know, and it was like, it’s not like, and then, you know, as you said that you lose the cerebral capacity to even think properly articulate yourself. It’s just it, the whole pot and it doesn’t serve you. But as you said, it it’s kind of just the KM, the resting base-line and the way that I’ve kind of interpreted your, your method is that the reason that awareness has needed to be developed first is because we are not even aware of how much of this tension habit we have in the first place.
1 (56m 21s):
And as you said, you need to do that kind of proud of people. And you realized
2 (56m 24s):
Like, Oh, actually that, that next really tight, or that chest is tight or whatever, but you have to develop the awareness for us to realize that what do you think is your baseline relaxed state is actually a resting level of tension. And it’s only then that you can then start to move that set points into a more relaxed state and you can then access to that more and more easily than hunky yourself in that new, at that point. And then it becomes the new, you know, that that is not quite there yet on a scientific way of describing it. Yes.
5 (57m 0s):
Hey, Johnny here just a really quick interruption to this episode, to let you know about a resource, we now have up and running on propanefitness.com. One of the most popular questions we get from readers and listeners is, Hey guys, what would you recommend for my starting calories for fat loss and muscle gain? How much protein carbs, fat, how many calories should I eat to, to begin my journey as a starting point. Normally this is something that we do for clients when they come in to our program for appropriate protocol. But recently we have opened up the calculator that we use for all of our clients, so that you can get a free calculation, a free starting point of what we would recommend. If you are as a, it, as a client with us, for your protein carbs fats on calories overall for either fat loss or muscle gain customized to you on your goal.
5 (57m 44s):
If you want to get access to that, it is totally free. You just have to go to propanefitness.com forward slash calculator, enter your information, and we will send your macros and your calories recommendations to that e-mail address. And we’ll also send you a few free resources over email, just to pop that out and ensure that you have the best possible chances of reaching your goals in fat loss and muscle gain. I hope you enjoy the rest of this house.
2 (58m 8s):
Something, something else that’s in your list. Let me just speaking about this briefly. I spoke before about the thought stream, the thought stream, just those thoughts to keep generating themselves without you actually doing anything to generate them. And you really need a certain stillness to be able to see this. And so let’s talk briefly about once you’ve same, how many new thoughts are produced every second. Let’s say it, it might take you out of it looks at it. It could happen the very first time that you said you couldn’t, you could end you’re a first sitting session in saying, Oh my God, that I had no idea that I was thinking so much.
2 (58m 49s):
So I had no idea that I actually cannot pull myself away from that thought stream and you’ve got to acknowledge, and I would always acknowledge that the thought stream itself is extremely seductive. And the reason is yours is that you, the thought stream believes it’s, you know, I am thinking I am having these thoughts and the implication there is there must be something important about them. And if their thoughts about me, when, of course they’re important, write that is the shape of it, our culture it’s, it’s a weird the closet. It, the thing which we think
1 (59m 22s):
It is, it’s kind of a closed loop because we think is the thing, which is also the thing that we are assessing the thing by its very hard to get out of a thought, but the recognition that the mind is just a secreting thoughts, like the pancreas is decreasing insulin and it’s going to do it regardless. Yes. It’s such a thrill. Yeah. And I think in those deep States of relaxation, you know, like our mind is just doing what it does and I’m over here.
2 (59m 49s):
Yeah. And that just, just stop there. That’s that two things it’s about 25 things, but let me just, it was the most important one. I got to tell a quick story. I was on the trade once in Berkeley, California, and I was in a small two and a half or a full mat room. So I’m very small, like a, a small office on the floor on a Japanese flooring tatami I was doing a guided relaxation practice with, we should have asked your dad to make them prep, probably add links to, to this underneath where this video it will be.
2 (1h 0m 29s):
We have a huge number of audio recordings, many of which are recorded while I’ve been teaching on the monasteries and what they are is a guided relaxation exercise. Their also their Lying meditation too, that the words that we used to cover up these experiences and really not terribly helpful. And maybe talk more about it that later.
1 (1h 0m 47s):
Well, for, for download on, on your website as well. So there is one for this one for back pain, which I basically know by heart. And now that I’ve listened to it every night for a few months and yeah.
2 (1h 0m 59s):
And it, and they work, they work very much. So, like I said, I was in this room and I was going through part of the practice market. For example, you say to yourself, well, you see it, you can see a little visualize right-hand thumb index finger, middle finger, blah, blah, blah, right in the body, which I think is very much in sync with, to go anchor idea for a scanning, your buddy, isn’t it? Yeah. So I’m going to get a top-down top down or sometimes a bottom-up it doesn’t. And again, it doesn’t matter. You just have to start the thing here is to actually engage in the process that they know the details of the process of actually in my view, not that important, but engaging in the process.
2 (1h 1m 42s):
Is there anything else in this room lying on my back and try and relax as much as possible. And I, I heard someone snoring and thought about it for a moment. It was probably only a split second or a second or two. And I sort of I’m on my end in this room who snoring and this, this, this is profound. This insight. Number two, I guess I just, I suddenly realized with complete clarity that my body was awake asleep, I should say. And snoring in my mind was wide awake and clear. And of course that woke me up immediately that stuff, the practice, but ever since that dissociation of the thought stream and the mind’s activity from what the body is doing is something that happens every time I do a Lying relaxation practice with that file.
2 (1h 2m 32s):
And here is the key point when the body falls asleep, like this spot itself, it States to deep relaxation is profound and the mind is still awake. And I know that I’ve said this to a few people and people to solve that. Just not possible to do that when they, when the body feels the slate, the mind falls asleep to know that that’s not true. In fact, as a whole school with meditation, which, which has done only in that state when the body is physically asleep, when the mind is wide awake.
1 (1h 3m 4s):
Well, all of the guys that are into astral projection and out of body experiences to say that that’s the DUS, the prerequisite, that’s the, it, is it just that FORM,
2 (1h 3m 13s):
It’s the first dissociation, but I personally have no interest in those and those other practices. My practices are all about trying to help me to become a better human being. So it’s the here and now the world’s that were living in right now, that is of most interest to me. But anyway, here’s the point. And this now comes back to a point that you made about five minutes ago, which is at some point you will have the experience that a space in which you are meditating has opened up where your thoughts can actually be seen to be occurring. Now just exactly in physics terms, what that space is.
2 (1h 3m 55s):
I would not like to try and say, but everyone who’s meditated for a long while. It will have had the experience of literally being able to see the thought stream. You will see the generation of a thought, a new thought, it flows Les to write, let’s say a cross. How do you experience your thoughts and the news source and a new thought of it as, and this is a critical thing that ties the physical work into the meditation project and why I believe it’s so critically important to learn how to relax. I’m going to argue that that space I’ve just described cannot open for you without a state of deep, deep relaxation.
2 (1h 4m 45s):
And that can happen when you’re sitting. It can happen. Doing standing practice are, I’ve done a lot of standing practice, and I’ve also done a lot of walking practice as, or moving practice as we were talking about it the other day one practice, or we haven’t spoken about breath counting yet. And we should come to that. ’cause, that’s another way of just checking your self to see whether or not you’re falling asleep and dreaming that you’re meditating, because that can also happen to how do we know that we’re actually awake? That’s actually a very deep then. Question two. How do you know you’re awake, turned out to be a lot more complicated than you think, but the way that the space and seeing the thought stream is a second grade insight, because suddenly you realize there’s and normally these feelings and sensations that are, and ideas come in pretty rapid succession.
2 (1h 5m 31s):
You suddenly realize that there is a space that you do whatever that is in habit. That is not your source of stream. And for me personally, when I saw that, so clearly I felt an immense weight being lifted off my shoulders. You know, I had this experience that, Oh, thank God I don’t have to be or do anything. And that doesn’t sound to a Westerners much of an attractive state or, or insight, but it’s, it is truly liberating, liberating in the core sense of feeling like a prisoner who has been let out of jail, not sort of felt light to me anyway, as a result, the, the things that most people are not as concerned about it most of the time.
2 (1h 6m 18s):
And I think we just don’t occupy my thinking at all so much.
1 (1h 6m 23s):
It does it go ahead and cool. There’s a guy called Garry Webber who have been following it for some time. And I think, yeah, you know, of him, he had a, the, the sense of his thoughts stopping and his lifestyle carrying on the momentum of, of, of playing out what he does. What he said was my life runs a lot better without me in it.
2 (1h 6m 49s):
I know it sounds paradoxical to say to that, of course, but no, I understand exactly what he means and that something that will say to me, I have heard on actual retreats where the teacher running the retreat will say something and not regardless is honestly genuinely stupid. But anyway, that was the repeated anyway, empty. You mind now? Remember my direction the first time? Oh no, no. I said you might, if I could do that, I wouldn’t be here. What are you talking about? So realizing that for an hour for an advanced meditator, that is something that I can actually do that is that’s effect empty a month.
2 (1h 7m 31s):
But in fact, it’s an advanced practice and all that.
1 (1h 7m 34s):
We didn’t know what this is like the, the, the concert pianist or the concert violinist expect, or they had an expert diver because they’ve got to it in muscle memory. They forget the, actually the, this is not, that can just jump off the 30 foot board because you have to go through that process first and say, Oh, you just do a double flip off the diving board. It’s like, well, you know?
2 (1h 7m 53s):
Hmm, not really.
1 (1h 7m 55s):
Yeah. So I’ve got a few you a quick fire questions for you as well. So I, I feel like I’ve, I’ve jumped in mid thought that there are no, no, no.
2 (1h 8m 7s):
Is there something else that would, let me just add this details to what I’ve been speaking about? This process that I’m talking about is fundamentally circular. It is not a linear or even randomly linear progression. You literally come back to the beginning again and again and again, that you have more insight about what it means to be you and to experience this life and all of those things. That’s what changes you have probably seen to be a bit more relaxed to people outside of your, I mean, by that time in your, your partner’s or your parents’ or people around you and my comment that they notice, you seem to be a bit more Lexie the size.
2 (1h 8m 51s):
And also as I’m fond of saying happier for no reason at all and all that, that will happen in time. But the key thing is to pay attention, whether you’re sitting or standing moving on line to what’s actually happening now, what’s actually happening now. And the take home message from this part of what I’m talking about is the excess point. And the, the, the myths a, that will never let you down is to tune into your own body. Now, look, ask me those quick fire questions, but if we have time, I’d like to come back and talk to you about it, how I’ve used the same techniques to work with my own personal affliction, which is anger.
2 (1h 9m 32s):
Absolutely. I will ask you the quick fire questions.
1 (1h 9m 36s):
So the first one is somebody who was asking me, this is actually the opposite problem to what you’ve described, which is when someone sits down to meditate. Normally the issue is I’m not getting much of a feel for what are the sensations of, to crude and to, you know, struggling to really finesse what’s going on and feel what’s going on. This other person that asked me, said, I struggled to meditate because everything’s so intense. And she is a very emotional person. She’s very, I’m not histrionic, but she was like right up there. And, and so she says, if she sits down to meditate, should immediately get very tearful and feel a lot of turmoil inside.
1 (1h 10m 19s):
What would you say to somebody like that?
2 (1h 10m 25s):
Interesting. Well, but then I’m a, when I was in a yoga school to my, my denying that I was given was dumb a beer at which means Here out of the Donna basically, it’s, ah, it’s a description of a sarcastic. So I would say a description of my prior to doing everything, which is to dive in, I would, if I were that person and I was experiencing those things, I would simply direct myself to relax more and relax more because you can not have any emotional experience happen in the body without knowing what you described as that concomitant physical state.
2 (1h 11m 8s):
And so you need to feel where in the body, this state is being manifested or being, again, the words that are wrong because because emotions are actually properties with the body, they are not properties of the mind, although the mind can certainly cause the emotions to be felt. And it’s probably of what’s happening in her case. It’s no, it’s not any benefit in my opinion, to think about it or to try and analyze where or what memories are associated with this experience being manifested, but rather in a safe, controlled environment to allow yourself to experience the physical sensations of it with no commentary, no explanation, and definitely, you know, analysis that most people find that really hard.
2 (1h 11m 57s):
And what’s underneath all emotions. And again, with this is another long conversation that we’re about to start, but what’s underneath. Everything is fear. And the deepest fear of course, is fear of being extinguished. I’m going to stop. Everyone is everyone in the West knows that their life will end, but absolutely no one spends any time contemplating what that actually means in the body to know that your life you’re going to end well,
1 (1h 12m 21s):
Not fear is I’m experienced in a microcosm. And when you are Stretching and a position where you feel not fully safe. And there was definitely particularly in the hip and piriformis and pigeon the structure of a workshop, people are bursting into tears. And I think, I guess this is part of the reason why you, you have so much emphasis on support in the stretches and making sure that the muscles are feeling supported. You have a partner that’s, that’s leaning into you rather than pressing it to you, that you feel like your being cradled. So you can relax into that stretch that would have previously felt unsafe. Yeah, I’m on the road.
2 (1h 13m 2s):
Oh, a hundred percent on the right track. There’s more, of course the comfort thing and the feeling safe thing. They’re simply their prerequisites for actually doing any useful work, because this is not an obvious thing that you cannot make muscles flexible, which is by forcing them to lengthen, you’ll take or something. If you are. In fact, you’re a fear based kind of person because you are in protective mechanisms will be so strong that as you try and force that muscle to lengthen, they will just contract to look at what you said is a goal because, and this is a real reason for doing all of the support. It stretches and making sure that the intensity is not to much, but it has to be enough to provide a result and all the risk of the things that we have spoken about.
2 (1h 13m 43s):
You are literally holding yourself on the edge of a long razorblade, that’s actually what’s happening. And you will be a a hundred percent totally fully present with the sensations because they’re strong. They’re not so strong that they are you, but I guarantee you, if you cast your mind back to those moments, you are not thinking about anything. Your mind was completely clear what panic, panic, and fear panic was on one side. And on the other side, it was just chaos. It is.
1 (1h 14m 17s):
But no one worries about that. Bill is when they’ve got 200 kilos on that back or not, you’re in a, you’re in a split.
2 (1h 14m 22s):
Yeah. So it’s so important to, to actually not to understand that conceptually not to have experienced it many times, because just like the capacity to bring your awareness back to you, a meditation object, the capacity to stay on the edge of that razor blade between, well, in the classes we had side Silla and corruptors remember that this is a disease, as Jen said, it was, he was cold between Siller and Curtis in a classical reference because holding yourself, there is a skill exactly the same as holding your awareness on your meditation object. In my book, there is no difference between those skills. Actually, they are different forms of the same skill and they life changing skills.
2 (1h 15m 9s):
Full-stop now, well, what, what, what will it take my life into? You have no idea, but at what we’re doing in the process of developing the strengths, all of the, a greater capacity on both of those exes is we are removing restrictions to being as a self, whatever that is. We are never adding anything, whether you’re talking about meditation or Stretching work that we do you, and you’re not adding anything to the being, you are only removing restrictions. Again, not an obvious thing. We are literally GENTLY safely dismantling all of those choices and decisions that you’ve made in the past, which you made unconsciously and all the things that you believe to be you,
1 (1h 15m 56s):
Not enough. It’s a great insight in itself that actually, if you can just take away the restrictions, what you are at your core is the best functioning best version of yourself. And it’s so much more of a, is such a relief to hear because you know what I do, I don’t need to go and install new modules. I just need to uninstall all the shit one’s that are, was a mix of one wrongly. So that again,
2 (1h 16m 24s):
And it looked, I don’t know. I think I’m pretty sure you can make Gary would say exactly the same things
1 (1h 16m 29s):
We spoke is actually a very much, he uses the human operating system as his basis metaphor for his book. Yeah.
2 (1h 16m 38s):
Okay. A quick follow up questions if you’ve got a few more.
1 (1h 16m 40s):
Yeah. So what are your thoughts on these kind of devices? It was quite a few of the bio tracking things. This is a portable EEG that you might’ve heard of it, where it is. So for anyone that doesn’t know, it’s a muse headset, it synchronizes with your phone. When you are in a deepest state of concentration, the sound changes from say a busy, see busy waves down to a calmer, see on a bird tweeting. And when you lose the train of thought, it becomes a more angry seat. Now I’ve used it for awhile. I’ll re I’ll hold my personal thoughts on that.
1 (1h 17m 20s):
Cause I’m keen to hear what you, what your impression is of these things.
2 (1h 17m 26s):
Yeah. I think that there are a fantastic device. If you’re going to make some money just a little bit with them, and I can see is this the integration with a phone to a brilliant, because you couldn’t put an incident number of programs on to the phone, but look at it may just be, well at first they will have to acknowledge what I have not experienced them, but I have played round with binaural dates. And so I know that they’re not exactly the same, so I’m not anti-technology I made my own bait generating machine. It, it was very simple. Then you can get them off the internet free of these days. And I spent a long time investigating, say to a Delta and the alpha state in the, and the more interesting boarders between those three States, but then after a lot of big time unnecessary, because I do this again, is really how to put the sink in the woods because we do not have a language for describing sensations that has any kind of precision about it at all.
2 (1h 18m 26s):
But the feeling of being in those States is that they are familiar to me. Let me give you an example of what I mean by that. And I said, I would come back to the breath counting, cause this is the perfect time to do that. I was on a retreat in task, New Mexico. Four well, I have always said it’s been six months, but it might only have been three. I really just don’t remember it now, but I was working as a particularly gifted teacher and another teacher had said to me, before I went in there for a trade, Oh, well, the solution to your problems is obviously you have to find the serenity in your body.
2 (1h 19m 8s):
And I said, what does that mean? What does serenity mean? And that became my task. What are the serenity feel like? Not as a concept, but as an experience. And this is what I’ve learned. This is the deepest insight probably that I’ve had is that unless you experience these things in an awake state and can know them so well, that they then become a part of the new you, then you really haven’t understood or whatever it is that you have to be talking about it at all. So at the embodiment, it’s absolutely critical, I think. And that means you have to slow down enough.
2 (1h 19m 50s):
And I remember your colleague, Gary talking about his thought stopping. Well, a comment I’d say on that is you can’t stop your thoughts or what are some school to tell you to try to do that? Like empty your mind as I mentioned a moment ago, but what is probably the thing that will those ideas up is to know that the more deeply you can relax while you were engaged in this process, what you’ll notice at some point. And, and I’ve always been very careful about preempting, what other people’s experiences will be because their experience, it might not, they may not be what I’m describing, but what many people have described is in there in the process of everythings slowing down, you’ll notice firstly that the state of generation, the thoughts definitely slow this down.
2 (1h 20m 40s):
And then at some point you’ll notice that there’s actually a space between thoughts being generated and then sometime late. And it could be a long time. The space has become larger than the thoughts. And eventually at some point you realize that it was simply experiencing. I am just the experience of all being without salt. Not, not, not because it stopped them or not because you’ve actively chosen to stop them. And I’m sure that someone with really strong willpower will probably think that they can do it that way. No, by fully inhabiting your physical body, being completely in sync with what’s happening and a feeling your pulse rate.
2 (1h 21m 28s):
For example, I’m always aware of my blood pressure as well. These are things that you, all of these things that are allegedly or autonomic nervous system responses in time, you can tune into all of those things and they become real experiences for you and able to be controlled as well. If you need to do it all sounds a bit fanciful, I suppose. But,
1 (1h 21m 52s):
Well, the, the image that he described was very similar to that, which was the, the sky. And it’s filled with birds like a huge flock of birds. And that flapping about in the sky is black because of how many birds there are, this guy didn’t go away, but it’s only when the birds clear. And then you only see the occasional single bird fly through this guy that you were like, Oh, actually this guy is the baseline on. The thoughts are just passing through it.
2 (1h 22m 21s):
And, and, and, and not a bad thoughts. There’s a famous quote from almond Shima where she scolded her students. But in a very loving way, she said, Oh, my children, my children, you liked the naughty fish dancing, kind of the service. They crying out. I am the ocean. I am the ocean. That’s what I was. So it is, it’s such a beautiful way of describing it. And, and a key term in that description is naughty fish, not bad fish, because thoughts that are just doing what they are designed to do in fact, have a good to get down to it. This was a spot in a whole new thread, but what so many times I’ve been on a fate working with one teacher in particular, he would always be asked, well, if your thinking is so bad, why would we want will be given?
2 (1h 23m 13s):
So it’s why do we come into this world? We don’t actually come into this world to so that’s, that’s not accurate, but that’s how we normally put it. Why are we giving the, why is thinking firstly described as bad and in meditation in schools and how we have to somehow wean ourselves off and obsessional or relationship with thoughts and all the risk of it? Why, why would we put it is, is, is this, this guy that said, is this the original sin? And that it takes you to is cracked up. And he said, no. He said, thoughts are given to us to create suffering. And it sounds really weird decided that without a stimulus to wake up, there will be no movement to wake up in the whole of this price is designed to bring you closer and closer to the real you have to put in, in other terms to wake up, to be present, to be fully present.
1 (1h 24m 7s):
That’s interesting. Well, the, as you said last time that the mind does a great servant, but a terrible master,
2 (1h 24m 14s):
That’s it in another way. Yes, exactly. So three more
1 (1h 24m 20s):
Quick follow up questions if you have time. Yeah. First one is what do you think of mantras? Because as far as I understand, they are a technology to, I guess, give the mind something to do and artificially quiet the mind. And I’ve heard some people are quite quite an anti mantra because they are saying it doesn’t really develop it. It’s almost like a cheat, whereas others say it it’s the way to reach highest States in meditation.
2 (1h 24m 49s):
Well, firstly, I have very little experience with mantra. I have had some experience with it, but not a great experience. And the reason is, and this is why we need to be so careful. When are we listening to the prescription’s from any teacher because of any teacher, any of the talks about the experiences that I had that were actually effected for them and not just as guilty of that as anyone else, because I’ve found that actually experiencing, actually finding and holding the experience of serenity in my body was a life changing process for me. And so of course I’m going to recommend something similar, but I don’t because I don’t because I, and I only have decided this was on my own insight because it is a very lucky that for example, the students, you were talking about the fall of the one that when she sits, goes into a very sort of wit gushy emotional state, and, and then it doesn’t want to go any further into that state.
2 (1h 25m 47s):
There’s just so many different Xes that one’s own a house. As I say, the one’s in sticky areas in one’s life play out. And when you listened to people talking about their personal stickiness, there will be a completely different flavors each person, but anyway, okay. Mantra, I think that it, let me answer that question. Mantra’s are actually far more powerful and have a much deeper technical or technological basis than most Westerners have any understanding of it. And I don’t mean, I know I sound sometimes pejorative and directive when I say these things, but what I mean is that I’ve had enough exposure to mantra to understand that each of the syllables, the seed syllables, as they are cold, have different effects on the body and the mind.
2 (1h 26m 36s):
And so I have a mantra. If a mantra is given to you by a teacher who is gifted enough to actually see inside you, and to be able to see, say, my antidote was finding serenity, another teacher can say, you need these five seed syllables arranged in this particular order. They never say it like this, but that will create the change through vibrational technology. As you say, the mantra and that paradox is that the mantra that’s unvoiced is actually the more powerful form of it. It’s not just a physical vibrations. It’s the vibrations on many X’s that occur when you direct your attention, you have your strengthening, a concentration in that too.
2 (1h 27m 20s):
Cause holding your awareness on the mantra is equally as good as holding your awareness on the sensations of breathing. If we think about it from that instrumental way, a mantra is extremely candy is extremely powerful. It just wasn’t my way in that if you have had experience with mantra and especially if you work with some guru who really does understand mantra, they go, well, what’s, what’s the highest accolade, but it can be life changing. That’s what we tried.
1 (1h 27m 51s):
It sounds like that’s maybe a key point then, because there’s certainly commercialized methods like transcendental meditation where they say, Oh, this is your secret mantra and you can’t tell anyone. And they say that because really they’ve just given everyone in the same one. This is a kind of lazy practice. And so on that note that on the kind of prescriptive nurse, what I mean, this is kind of a leading question because I know anyway, so with the method is about down-regulating your nervous system and relaxing, but equally you want,
2 (1h 28m 30s):
Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me. That is a very narrow perspective on what it is. And that is not how I would describe it. In fact, those are the techniques of what you call down regulating, or I would call say experiencing deep relaxation in your body. That is only a technique. It’s only a method. It’s a stepping stone to something much more powerful on that. I feel like you, you you’ve preempted my questions
1 (1h 29m 2s):
Then. So well now that this is, this is it then. So with, with this, this is one side of the, of the practice on the other side, doing intense activity. It seems to have the way that our body’s respond to it, that if you give yourself a injection of short acute stress, then you become calmer as a result or something. Or if you’ve seen fight club, it says after a fight, the volume in life has been turned down or doing strength training. It’s, it’s almost like an acute stressor or a cold shower or fasting or anything that induces a hormetic response in the individual to then cause you to adopt and to become calmer or afterwards, how does it fit in with your method?
1 (1h 29m 50s):
And have you, have you experimented with things like dynamic meditation or primal scream therapy or anything that’s kind of on the other end of the relaxation response?
2 (1h 30m 4s):
Nah, no, I haven’t. That’s a showdown, shoot you a question. I do not know anything about them and see how it would be foolish and a waste of time, ready to comment on those things. I haven’t had direct experience all of them. And so I can’t really say anything useful about them, but what I will say the general observation is that in my experience in having Dana and teacher, all of these in her life did things for a very long time now. And so do you want to study something here is the vast majority of Western is that I come in contact with believes that they can relax.
2 (1h 30m 44s):
But my assessment is that they are not deeply relaxed. Very few people can be relaxed and there’s all sorts of reasons. So that is we have a canvas for, for the social media or among them is the fact that we are in a pandemic at the moment. There’s no one’s going to be able to control. And at the end different things, which people would experience as a stress or pressure or in their lives. Now that you have a background in science. So it’s probably opportune here to talk about sympathetic versus parasympathetic nervous system response. The, the, the human being, and this is the reason why I think cultivating the relaxation response is actually so much more than what you’ve just described it as a, as Jan regulating and, and so on.
2 (1h 31m 33s):
And in fact, he’s the chaos, I think, to a kind of self liberation for most people is simply because as a species is expert at mobilizing the fight or flight response, how do we know that? Well, with the dominant space is on the planet for the planet’s cost and how we know we are experts. Human beings are a real area of expertise, is killing other human beings that has been in a signature behavior of all human groups. Unfortunately, you know that in other words, period’s of peace and prosperity are actually the exception rather than the rule. Although because humans live a certain number of years, it’s always tempting to think to periods of fifties and sixties and seventies is normal.
2 (1h 32m 21s):
Well, if you cast your mind back just another 50, 60, or 70 years to the first world war as a second, Mobil the Korean war on the Vietnam war, that’s only in the recent century, not to mention the hundreds of other conflicts ongoing and in Africa and in the middle East and, and blah, blah, blah. What we are human beings are a wall like where we have become skilled in doing these things. And we have ruined the planet because of our capacity, two of us, the fight of flight response. So spectacularly, and so, and this is the key thing that’s as sympathetic nervous system response, you heard, I forgot the exact CDs, right?
2 (1h 33m 5s):
And there was an equal and opposite para-sympathetic nervous response where all of the actions of the parents into the sympathetic nervous system is that literally do the opposite. It’s a bit like insulin and glucagon. Most of these chemistries in the body exist in a dynamic balance with one another and I, and environmental things will post and choices. Rather forces push the secretion of one of those hormones, more of the other, or the other way. I, for example, when you get hungry, then there’s been a stream of hormones released after you have eight and a different stream of hormones, there’s a release and they balance one another for the most part.
2 (1h 33m 46s):
Well, I regard relaxation and stimulation as being just simply two sides of the same coin. That’s all in my experience. Most Western are not very good at eliciting the relaxation response, and that’s why I’ve made it. My life’s work to work in this area because I see, I see in our culture, especially Western culture, a tremendous and extremely dangerous imbalance of what people believe is normal and good, good United follows a very close the on from normal. I know you, no, this is an incredibly seductive and very dangerous idea of potentially.
1 (1h 34m 25s):
And now it may be odd to do that then is yes. Maybe we are very good at mobilizing the fight flight response, but I think NOT hyper, acutely. I think we are good at chronically mobilizing the fight flight response and, or atrophied and crop it mobilizing the parasympathetic response. And so what is happening is we’ve got this, like, let’s say it as if it was as if our adrenals or these like hypertrophied, like in gorged glanced that are just always just leaking a bit and always be a little bit tense. And the parasympathetic nervous system is almost, is like for a really dried up prune.
1 (1h 35m 5s):
And so that’s possibly why having these acute periods of intense exercise or intense stress, or do you know, that’s what I guess when, when you saw it at home and you been in slug mode all day and you haven’t moved at all and actually you don’t feel relaxed. Do you feel a bit like wound up? And sometimes even if you do it, Lying relaxation practices. It’s not going to be enough to do to relax. You, you might have to actually go out and do some steps, go out and run some work and lift some weights. And then you’ve kind of braces because you can then kind of burn off the energy and feel the reverse. So I, it does seem like they’re has to be some in young, both of these, but in a, in a calibrated way.
2 (1h 35m 51s):
Not, not just to calibrate it the way as the relaxation is happening, you have to be aware of it. You have to learn to feel what that actually feels like. What I mean is it’s one thing to go out and say, run some sets and come back and sit on the couch again and feel rejuvenated. But how many times between running the steps and coming home and feeling rejuvenated, did you check out as we like to say that you fall asleep? And so the relaxation is just a sudden awareness of a change of state. Whereas in fact, it has, it had been happening, but you weren’t nosing as it’s happening all the time, but we are not noticing it.
2 (1h 36m 39s):
The, the, the look, when I was first exposed to Zen Buddhism, I was captured by an idea which I have been pursuing it at the scenes. And that is the idea of engaging with reality directly, no filters, no buses, no anesthetic directly. And that became my life’s goal. I want to feel as much as possible, be able to discriminate the sensations and feelings of as much as possible, not be held captive by any of them.
2 (1h 37m 21s):
So that’s where the non-attachment rather than detachment prescription comes in detachment. As I mentioned to you in another conversation, and at the time it was a dead end, you’ll end up. Simpy not feeling anything. And there are some schools that practice that in my opinion, the, the, the less desirable ones known attachment or the other hand is something quite different, subtle, but immensely powerful. And that is, and it is perhaps on a subsequent conversation. We can talk about my experience with anger. Well, if we have, we got five minutes.
2 (1h 38m 1s):
Sure. Okay, well, I’m going to let me do it now. Then I’m going to take, take, take us back to 20 something years ago and my own personal history. When I was sitting with one of my teachers and someone I loved very much and drinking expensive cognacs from him because he was not much of a drinker. So, you know, as I like to have a drink every now and again, so we was sitting here, drinking is a very expensive connect. That to being gifted by one of his, that was the students and I made. And this is why you have to be very careful when you’re around your teacher, because they are not asleep. And they are paying attention to everything that you say all the time.
2 (1h 38m 41s):
That’s another story. We caught a pain and put it into the blow torch, but in the nicest possible way. Anyways. So it’s having this drink with this teacher. And I imagine to throw it away or remark, which he made, they jumped on. I said, I’m looking, I’m still looking forward to the day when I’m not angry all the time. And it just looked at me and you said, why? I said, well, you know, it is very hurtful for the people around me, its a full time on itself. It’s an incredibly distasteful, the Eccles and all that. He said, let me tell you about the time of the great bangs who allegedly walk the earth in the tradition before the Rishi is kind of a bat.
2 (1h 39m 25s):
So we talk to him about the people who have inspired the issues or a very, very long time ago. No one has any idea how, how long, but it is written about. And he said, the great beings were angry for the space of two or three heartbeats. And that became in that moment, that became my goal. And here is the reason. Now they are strongest recommendation on prescription of why it’s absolutely essential to learn, to feel what’s happening inside your own body. Because when you have a sufficiently relaxed in normal daily life, you will literally feel your body organizing itself to be angry or whatever other sticky it could be feeling tearful sad or whatever thing of you like the, when we were talking about the full and then this is a big thing because everything will have slowed down internally in you.
2 (1h 40m 29s):
The moment you steal your body organizing, it still has to be angry because anyone who’s angry will tell you precisely what it feels like and where it starts and how it transforms in zips through the body. It was warp speed. If you are aware of those first changes, you can put an interrupt
3 (1h 40m 49s):
Into play. You literally
2 (1h 40m 52s):
Have the capacity to choose. Do I get on this train again? Cause I know where it’s gone in and I’ll go down and I’ll get a PhD and upset, or I know exactly where this was going to go and how it’s going to end up. And you find out all the time, I’ll get angry a couple of mornings ago, talking to you a little bit about some project, a project that we’re involved. And I was just shocked at all familiar set of sensation. But anyway, the point is this, the more you practice being in touch with what’s actually happening in your body or you know, what the mind wants to be happening or thinks is happening on a wishlist happening or a greeting actually happening.
2 (1h 41m 32s):
But what’s actually happening. The more likelihood you have all being able to make a choice about whether to continue that behavior, which is for the most part ingrained well learned and reflexive.
1 (1h 41m 48s):
So the thought maybe answers the previous question then of if there is a presence of nervous energy due to inactivity being sought. Like I particularly got it. If I’m in, if I’m on a long shift in a hospital, 13 hour shift or especially if it’s a night shift as well. So at this particular lack of awareness and you just kind of go over the place that builds up of a nervous energy you were saying is because of the lack of awareness, there are these ingrained patterns where this is the stuff builds up because of the kink toe as pipe. And that actually going for a run or something is not the solution to it. It’s just a way to kind of shake it out on your system, but you know,
2 (1h 42m 29s):
Well, it, it, it’s what psychologists would call. I think displacement activity, there is something happening inside you, but you go off and you do something that you know, or you’ve been you’ve read about that is likely to produce endorphins. The minute I find all of the explanation is just completely fanciful, but that’s how they are normally spoken about. So here we go out with them. But basically the, the net result is, as you say, you run the steps and you come back and you feel better. But what I’m talking about is getting into the true dis ease of being used
1 (1h 43m 6s):
As it’s coming here, what’s
2 (1h 43m 8s):
Underneath, what’s actually happening in the body, which you are actually not consciously aware of. That’s the point? It’s so powerful, this idea it’s but it’s very hard to grasp. And that’s why we say, look, don’t worry about any of these kinds of things for now. I just pull up a question and sit down and just spend 10 minutes trying to hold your awareness. GENTLY on your meditation object. And I think that it used this expression recently that I loved it, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. These are subtle things and they are not the insights you can not direct.
2 (1h 43m 51s):
You can not create the moment when an insight will occur to you. And the insights are never gained by the director and thinking, by the way, I’m sure that’s obvious to you and insight by its very nature is something that spontaneously arises. Oh, I’m aware of that. And this is why people have their best ideas in the shower. Why? Because every time thinking and not the thinking when you’re in the shower, that’s the point, you know, as of it is so powerful, this idea, in fact, anyone that ever has the awareness to recapitulate, how they made any great discovery, whether it’s Watson in critical weather or whoever we’re talking about, great discoveries, no discoveries, moments of insight, they will always tell you that they were doing something else.
2 (1h 44m 42s):
That does very interesting.
1 (1h 44m 45s):
What a walkthrough Kit can I ask you one final question, just to wrap things up. This was from my flatmate who have listened to your podcasts. And so I really I’m enjoying the, the process that Kit is recommending, but is there anything that he would recommend that we stopped doing any big, any mistakes that you see people do that you think if this person
2 (1h 45m 10s):
Just to hear me or whether we’re still recording you just repeat that you were a flatmate
1 (1h 45m 17s):
Asked. Is, is there anything that if you do that or you see people doing that, you think if you just stopped doing that, things would improve. You don’t need to add anything else.
2 (1h 45m 29s):
Pretty much everything. Well, look, look, this is a thought experiment that if I’m will get this, I mean, we’re in the era of, of COVID-19 now so that people don’t go to the shopping centers on malls, as often as I used to, but just cost your mind. The last you went to a mall, ask yourself when you looked at the table, when you sat there watching people, did you actually see a happy human thing? This is a serious question.
1 (1h 46m 3s):
I was in the shopping malls. No, very rarely.
2 (1h 46m 6s):
Well isn’t that, isn’t that significant. I mean, there are people going out an actualized in themselves going to buy some in it. I think that I need, that’s why they are in the mall or The watching people press or whatever it is, but it is.
1 (1h 46m 23s):
And I think it was here that said, when you spoke at a happy person in the street, you make a point getting over and over.
2 (1h 46m 29s):
Well, I was always, in fact, in fact, I don’t have to start a happy person like that because those happy people and there are some around and they always spot me. We are because it’s so rare. So seriously. And so the reason why I’m one of my teachers said, if you have starts of school as a spiritual practice school, he was going to call it the being happy for absolutely no reason at all.
3 (1h 46m 57s):
So the fact is is, and this is, this is a big, big thing now. Yeah.
2 (1h 47m 3s):
When you remove enough restrictions and that’s what we’re talking about when you’re talking about learning how to become a meditator or when we’re learning, how to become deeply relaxed as an option, as an experience, as a conscious choice, and as a practice, you, we will find much to our amazement that our normal state is either
3 (1h 47m 28s):
Or I’m happy that actually
2 (1h 47m 30s):
This is a human being, a resting state when human beings are doing what they are supposed to be doing. And so you asked a second ago what
3 (1h 47m 41s):
The, the summation of this is simply to say, you have to find work to do that, pleases you for its unsafe. Like you have to be honest
2 (1h 47m 57s):
In touch with what’s actually happening inside you.
3 (1h 48m 1s):
You can’t let
2 (1h 48m 3s):
Anyone else’s foot in the position on the back of your neck, which I see so many of my young colleagues in a corporate situation and they are suffering as well as unfortunately as well. And that’s, and that in your work place as
3 (1h 48m 18s):
Well, the hierarchical
2 (1h 48m 21s):
Structures that most people will find themselves needing to be in for all sorts of reasons are fundamentally toxic. Unless you’re fortunate enough to be working with someone who is genuinely gifted. And I’m hoping that you are working with people that have a genuine, a gifted and who, or what’s more people are interested in helping out a PayPal that must be at the root somewhere and who are not obsessed by making money. Most people who become very good at doing something will make enough money to live on. I’m always suspicious of people who want to accumulate as much money as possible because just thinking about Donald Trump here, well, if you could eat money, I could, I could see a reason for it.
2 (1h 49m 8s):
But once you get passed a certain amount, adding to that number will not materially change your life in any discernible way. So what is it that you want out of your life? I mean, I’m drawing caricatures here again. Of course it is to make a point. The question, I have a little video on the subway to the question, what do I want is a very deep line. And it’s, it is I think, do you can only arrive at an understanding of what it is that you want by being still enough to have the insights that will reveal to you what it is that you want. I don’t think conscious thoughts can take you there. And so what I want to say in my own personal philosophy and now, and I’ve written about this elsewhere in this order, do some good, have some fun, make some money, very strongly in that order.
2 (1h 50m 3s):
And so the question then becomes as I am in my life, how cannot be useful to other people because in my experience, and having observed many human things that we have a very long period of time to be only human bangs that I’ve ever seen, who are happy, they never, the rich ones. It is always the ones whose daily lives for evolves around being useful to other people and not actively wanting to help take it in that sort of a goody two-shoes while you can come across that rather what attribute and skills do I have that this group here will find useful to them. And that’s all
1 (1h 50m 42s):
Do some goods, have some fun, make some money. Yeah. That is some great finishing words for that one. Okay. Thanks so much for coming on, but it reminds me of, so I’m currently reading a book called Essentialism a good one.
2 (1h 50m 60s):
Oh, I want to jump. I want to jump in there. I want to jump into now. I want to, I listened to your podcasts on reading the other day. Oh yeah. Yeah. I’m going to suggest you that. Well, I’m going to suggest to you, firstly, don’t mistake listening to an audiobook for reading because they are actually different sentences in the brain that we received the information. And secondly, please don’t listen to things that 2.7 stage or whatever it was that you said you were listening to things that, because I guarantee you that if I were to debrief you after reading one of those books in that way, the understanding that you would have would be superficial. Yes.
2 (1h 51m 40s):
The essential facts, no doubt will be remembered, especially with someone with the kind of brand. But my suggestion is if you’re going to write a book, raid a paper book and actually sit and write it at real time is fade because reading of the page is actually a different experience qualitatively. And I would argue quantitatively to form listening to an audio book while you’re doing something else. Yeah.
1 (1h 52m 9s):
Do you agree with you? Okay. And I think that, that certainly depending on the material, it there’s this lots of material that is not suitable for three times speed. And yeah, the, the majority of my comprehension happens between bouts of, of reading.
2 (1h 52m 27s):
That’s interesting. That’s insight, isn’t it? That’s what’s happening for sure. The ideas come to you in the space.
1 (1h 52m 34s):
I’ve found that there’s a lot of books that I’ve come down to to say, actually, I need to listen to this either on one time. So sometimes the less than one time to speed just to really sort it through. But it depends if that if the book is just time learning and it’s like, I need to apply this for all of a purpose, then it just got through it. That’s a completely different that that is completely different, but you are right with, with this book. Essentialism, this is clearly the message that I need to hear. And honestly, I’m actually doing both I’m reading and listening to it and its a very slow speed like this at the time. And one of the things that you mentioned that in a quote that I just, I wrote down from at least a day was when you know what you want you to do less because you know what you need.
1 (1h 53m 16s):
And, but the problem that the hard part of that is answering that question of what do you want?
2 (1h 53m 22s):
Yes. That is the hardest question by far. And if I may say there was no, I don’t believe well. In fact, if you said to me, I know exactly what I want, I’m on pursuing it now I would just regard that as a different kind of delusion. I know it sounds really cruel to say that, but, but what I mean is that I don’t believe that fundamentally. It’s the asking yourself the question on a regular basis, which is a critical part of it. It’s not actually come up with the answer to that. Again sounds a bit paradoxical, but I think I’m, I think, I think, I mean by that bias in saying that, I mean, if you ask yourself deeply, what do I want?
2 (1h 54m 10s):
You often find out that you are actually in a crisis who are doing what you don’t want. And that insight is just as valuable to as knowing what you want. So allow you have to be a God and on this journey by all the, I don’t want this. I don’t want that. And I definitely don’t want that and find out where you are sometimes that is the clearest way of getting to what you want. I think
1 (1h 54m 33s):
Much easier to see that parts of it. For sure.
2 (1h 54m 37s):
Yeah. I mean, you’ve, you’ve already made certain decisions about your own worked. For example, you have a clarity about that as a result or the experiences you’ve had. That’s one thing
1 (1h 54m 52s):
It has taken some time, a longer than I would’ve hoped, but you know,
2 (1h 54m 58s):
Listen, let me tell you something about chain and this is the last comment I’m going to make today. Change by its Knights can never happen fast enough for the person who wants to say, go to say that it’s taking more time than I want. That is just hysterical. Sorry.
1 (1h 55m 14s):
Yeah, this is the classic. Isn’t it do. Okay. This has been a fantastic chasse and I think it’s going to be really valuable for anyone with any level of experience with meditation, to be honest from zero to 10
2 (1h 55m 30s):
Here well it definitely, I’m not here. I think this is a really important that I regard myself seriously is a complete beginner, a complete beginner. I’ve had a few insights along the way. Yes, but I’m still a begin and we must talk. Next time we talk, we must talk about breast counting. We don’t have time to go into it now, but the reason I say that I’m still a complete beginning is that every time I sit down or lie down to do a practice, it is brand new. For me, it is it’s brand new. And, and any experience meditator will tell you this, depending on the circumstances, mood phase of the moon, who knows, I’m not sure we can, each of us find ourselves easily distracted by a solid stream.
2 (1h 56m 22s):
Again, just like with the beginner, the recommendation at the time to be hard on yourself and just gently bring your awareness back to the meditation object. That is exactly the shape of my practice. 35 years later, There’s nothing, nothing to be gained. There is, there is an AE, the extraordinarily wonderful opportunities to practice. And I’m pretty sure that that’s what the Dallas thing too. They don’t believe and enlightenment in the way that it’s sold in the marketplace. There is only the opportunity to, to practice now for many people who are outcome oriented and that’s pretty much everyone who’s listening today that will not say like a dessert well that there is no end goal.
2 (1h 57m 13s):
That’s one point there is only a being more present more often and being a better human being as my partner reminds me,
1 (1h 57m 26s):
Well, the only way to, to do it is to experience it. And we’ll put all of the links and all of the resources that you’ve mentioned in the description and in the show notes and people can get started right away.
2 (1h 57m 41s):
Look, you know, so thank you. I want to thank you very sincerely for inviting me on, because I’ve said to some things today, and this is always the case in the, the tension, but it’s a desirable tension of, of trying to explain things which are already social and also the things which don’t yield easily to the spoken or written word in interaction with you. Or allow me to say to them, things that I haven’t ever said before. And that that is a blessing, but I still wouldn’t be able to remember them in the future. That’s the point, the insights that we arrived at, there’s always a need some friction if I can put it that way.
2 (1h 58m 25s):
And so it really did the last one.
1 (1h 58m 27s):
What are you saying that he’s an idiot like me to be able to, to pull them out for you?
2 (1h 58m 32s):
Well, not much, much, much, much funnier, much better than that is that we are all beginners. It’s just that some of us have convinced ourselves that will be actually no something that’s useful that deep down we are all beginners and they begin. The thing is it’s about an attitude to what’s happening in my business’s name. You used to be shoshin Shashi and his Japanese for a beginner’s mind. That also means to begin a spirit and begin as hop two, because those three concepts are coalesced in the one character in Japanese and in China is too it’s.
2 (1h 59m 12s):
The attitude of beginner has, is open and curious and I’m able to learn that what I’m talking about. Most people, when they get to my age, I have already made 10,000 decisions about who and what they are. And I have literally a solidified if I can put it that way. And that’s why old people look and feel the way many of them do. It’s so sad, I think. And the reason why they moved away, they do it was because of the rigidity of their mental structure as to the certainty they have of who and what they are that we create our own are in prisons. All of us are you doing, that’s definitely want to, to talk about it in nine in the next one, hopefully, or what I do have to do that I’ll leave you with the great, as long as you like Rousseau it was quite in English and it was written in French.
2 (2h 0m 2s):
Of course he said, man is born free, but everywhere is in shape. And that’s what we are talking about.
5 (2h 0m 16s):
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5 (2h 1m 4s):
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