Ben said:
Why no carbs?
I think he's doing the prep phase for carb backloading or carbnite?
Joey's Training Log
(840 posts) (26 voices)-
surely if you come from fasting etc you won't need the transition into ketosis, as you will already be familiar with it?
"cut down on the cardio jackass."April 19, 2012 - 12:58 PM #1 like (Ben) -
Yusef said:
In doing the prep phase? The idea is to downregulate fatty acid synthase and switch into ketosis. I thought you did it too?Nope. I understand why the prep phase exists, but that's 10 days of my training and life I would've wasted for what is probably a minimal improvement. I look and feel crap on very low carbs, and it doesn't work for me.
I don't even lift.April 19, 2012 - 01:01 PM # -
Harrison said:
surely if you come from fasting etc you won't need the transition into ketosis, as you will already be familiar with it?You start to transition into ketosis by the 3rd day, the rest of the 10 days are for FAS downregulation.
Nope. I understand why the prep phase exists, but that's 10 days of my training and life I would've wasted for what is probably a minimal improvement. I look and feel crap on very low carbs, and it doesn't work for me.
Yeah, its not pleasant (especially with HIIT), and I feel it's only necessary if you're doing carb nite or something similar.
EDIT: Woops - Harrison you're right
"metal is just gabba for pansies" - HarrisonApril 19, 2012 - 01:04 PM #1 like (Ben) -
i thought his summary was
1-4 carb depletion
3-6 ketone buildup
7-10 fuel reorientationor if you do HIT and train hard it happens a few days faster (i.e. carb depleted a lot faster)?
Why do you want to down regulate FAS?I'm sure he has said that if you are very lean or used to no/low carb then you merrily transition into ketosis within 2-3 days anyway, whereas if your used to high carb then it takes at least a week.
if your used to doing 16/8 IF or especially longer fasts, won't you be used to dropping into ketosis? Or do you just rely on glycogen stores during that time?
I agree with Ben though, I'm not willing to take the training hit of 7-10 days training.
[bJ]oe I just realised your bad bench session was on a no carb day - don't be surprised you failed it[/b]. if your gonna do the prep phase, which is obviously what kiefer says, and its his diet, your training will be shit for a week, accept it. don't take it easier though because that will defeat the point of it but you might consider doing more volume and lifting a bit less heavy (like knock 5-10% off and go for more reps). high intensity on no carbs is like fuarrrrrrrk what happened to my brain.
"cut down on the cardio jackass."April 19, 2012 - 03:00 PM # -
Why do you want to down regulate FAS?
Very important for Carb Nite, Lipogenesis is a combination of fatty acid synthesis and glycolysis. Glycolysis is already down regulated with the low carb intake. By down regulating Fatty Acid Synthase you allow dietary fat to become a source of energy and prevent fatty acid synthesis via this pathway. You then have a 6-8 hour period where you consume carbs, this time shouldn't be sufficient to stimulate FAS production but should be enough to cause a bump in T3, T4 and leptin (although leptins regulation mechanism is still under question), hence allowing returns to be as linear as possible during the diet.
Technically this would also help for backloading
I'm sure he has said that if you are very lean or used to no/low carb then you merrily transition into ketosis within 2-3 days anyway, whereas if your used to high carb then it takes at least a week.
The amount of time that someone has to avoid carbs before they begin ketogenesis is highly individual - some people never actually enter ketosis because negative of feedback. I'd suggest anyone does the 10 days orientation before either of Kiefer's programs.
I agree with Ben though, I'm not willing to take the training hit of 7-10 days training.
So far I have added 5kg to my bench while on eating carbs on 4 of the past 36 days. There is no reason that carbs will increase power output, its mainly psychological - this doesn't hold for endurance activity or high reps but you do not need carbs to perform at your best, if anything carbs will down-regulate CNS activity and stimulate dopamine and seratonin production.
Until a man is twenty-five, he still thinks, every so often, that under the right circumstances he could be the baddest motherfucker in the world.April 19, 2012 - 07:06 PM #1 like (Yusef) -
i agree with everyone, thanks for the advice and discussion (which has made me feel a lot better)
so training has gone badly this week, if i keep going for 10 days no carb, i can make this is a deload week/10 days and resume after the no carb phase. like harrison says decrease intensity, increase volume?
question 1: if people do carb nite, does your training not suffer significantly during the 5 or so days of no carbs? day 4 of no carbs for me and i was struggling from day two!
question 2: what do i do on day 10? weigh myself, and then how many carbs am i allowed to eat?
@jonny, i've gradually come to the realisation that you are not human.
April 19, 2012 - 08:09 PM # -
question 1: if people do carb nite, does your training not suffer significantly during the 5 or so days of no carbs? day 4 of no carbs for me and i was struggling from day two!
I only experienced strength gains - I felt pretty sluggish until day 4-5 then felt good and if anything I have more energy than on backloading. I think I was fairly deprived of fats to be honest.
question 2: what do i do on day 10? weigh myself, and then how many carbs am i allowed to eat?
Day 10 would be a carb night. Are you doing backloading?
@jonny, i've gradually come to the realisation that you are not human.
I gave up all hope of being human when I became a PropaneFitness editor
Until a man is twenty-five, he still thinks, every so often, that under the right circumstances he could be the baddest motherfucker in the world.April 19, 2012 - 08:20 PM #1 like (Joe) -
1 like (Joe)
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lol my acquaintance/friend at the gym has persuaded me that sheiko is really good, but if it's directed at people on gear i don't see how i will benefit?
i have an explanation for feet pointing forwards, but i really can't remember. it's really convincing though
April 21, 2012 - 10:33 PM # -
youll benefit by squatting benching and deadlifting with a fuck ton of volume, however its intended for advanced trainees, made by (current/former?) head coach of the russian powerlifting team, Boris Sheiko.
honest: seems utterly stupid to do sheiko when you cant squat properly.
guy I knew who ran it recently squats 200 without a belt atg and benches over 140. He doesn't like to deadlift because of a back injury so he just did different back work for deads.
all the sheiko's are good programs. they are v hard. If you can handle it do it, but youll be running before you walk. Also, probably dont need the horrendous volume to progress. Can probably progress faster etc etc
i have an explanation for feet pointing forwards, but i really can't remember. it's really convincing though
must be extremely convincing if you dont remember his argument.
Who is this guy / how much can he lift / is he any good?is it along these lines:
MWOD FAIL
becuase thats the only time Kstar makes me facepalm"cut down on the cardio jackass."April 21, 2012 - 11:59 PM # -
harrison, yet again, thanks for your help! yeah fuck sheiko, i really want to autoregulate but don't think i'm advanced enough yet to get the real benefit out of it.
i think it would be an ok idea to drop 5kg from lifts, carry on with 3x3 deadlift and marc's bench proggie and do 3 weeks on 1 week volume/deload if i need it as it's pretty hard.
ok so about feet forward, the feet point forwards but the knees point out whilst squeezing the glutes. it is a much more stable position and creates an arch on the inside of the foot. try going into squat position with feet forward vs feet pointed out and get someone to try and push your knees inwards - feet forwards is much stronger.
the guy who told me this is about to do a push/pull comp in birmingham in 4 weeks and hoping for a 250 deadlift, 150 bench, (and can squat 190). @82.5kg bw.
he's good, and i trust him.^ this isn't the real explanation, this is MY shitty explanation.
again, got a lot of technique work to do in all lifts, and every time i think my technique is getting better, i find something else i'm doing that is catastrophically bad...
oh also yeah that article sounds familiar, and he mentioned ed coan and his knee collapsing... and he also talked about the 10 min squat test. i should really take notes when people tell me things.
April 22, 2012 - 10:57 AM # -
thats only true if the arch collapses though. Anyway, if its working do it.
guy sounds decent so learn what you can from him
"cut down on the cardio jackass."April 22, 2012 - 12:27 PM #1 like (Joe) -
Why are you phaggots debating where your feet point....
Feet forward with a metric shit tonne of weight on the bar.
Its down to the lifter there is no concrete correct or wrong answer on form.
April 22, 2012 - 03:14 PM # -
today:
squat - bar, bar, bar, 40kg x 5. 60kg x 5. 70kg x 5. 80kg x 5. 90kg x 3. 100kg x 2. second rep was slow so back to 60kg x 5. 70kg x 5, 5, 5.
bench - 60kg 5x5 or something like that.
had a go at making a no carb peppercorn sauce to go with my steak, turned out pretty nice!
squat vid:
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3keUqSNwHE[/video]
April 22, 2012 - 05:18 PM # -
1 like (Yusef)
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7AM swim
10AM interview right next to gym so popped in afterwards for a stretch, front squats and abs.gonna resume program today i think, starting to feel a lot better on no carbs.
also might be going for an all you can eat meat buffet tonight, i don't think it's a problem if i eat fuck loads of meat but i hope i don't overdose on fat.
April 23, 2012 - 12:10 PM # -
Rob Adell's depth is insane. Both him and josh gilbert seem to squat feet directly forward pretty well!
watch out for sauce on the meat, if your going all you can eat chances are it will be smeared in sugar.
I wouldnt care, but make sure you dont sabotage the introductory phase after youve put the effort in to do it
"cut down on the cardio jackass."April 23, 2012 - 12:17 PM #1 like (Joe) -
yeah good point, i might just ask for a jug of double cream to add to bare steaks haha
April 23, 2012 - 12:20 PM #1 like (Harrison) -
watched so you think you can bench today, the answer is no.
bench - bar, bar, bar, 40kg, 60kg, bar, bar, 60kg, 60kg x 5-10 reps. 70kg x 3, 3. 75kg x 6. 90kg x 1. 60kg x 5, 3, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2. 70kg x 3, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2. 75kg x 2, 1, 2, 2. 60kg x 3, 1, 3.
April 23, 2012 - 06:43 PM #
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