Why You Should Eat Carbs at Night

A common diet myth, repeated by broscientists, is that you shouldn’t eat carbs at night because you’ll get fat.  But not only is that not true, you may experience improved fat loss and muscle gains!

Insulin is a nutrient storage hormone, in particular it is responsible for the uptake of glucose from the blood in muscle and fat cells . Carbohydrates and protein have the greatest impact on insulin secretion, while fat has little to no impact. Insulin sensitivity refers to how well you respond to insulin; if you are insulin sensitive then you require normal or low levels of insulin to transport glucose.

(c) Uwe Hermann – http://www.flickr.com/photos/uwehermann/

Insulin sensitivity is higher earlier in the day, but it is higher in both muscle and fat cells. That means that consuming a typical large, carbohydrate rich, breakfast may lead to fat gain. Later in the day, when insulin sensitivity is decreased in both muscle and fat cells, is the ideal time to train. Resistance training induces GLUT4 (1) translocation to the muscle cell membranes, allowing glucose to be transported to the muscle cells. That means that a high carb post-workout meal is less likely to contribute to fat gain, and more likely to result in muscle gain.

A recent study (2)  shows that eating the majority of your carbs at night results in faster fat loss, improved satiety, better leptin levels and insulin sensitivity, and lower blood glucose. And since carbs stimulate the production of serotonin (3), you will sleep better too.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLUT4

[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21475137

[3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2077351

 

 

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71 responses to “Eating Carbs at Night: How You Can Get Leaner, Gain More Muscle, and Sleep Better

  1. have you forgotten that insulin also shuttles amino acids into muscle cells?

    MDMA increases serotonin levels but certainly won’t help you get to sleep. sleep cycles and serotonin levels are complex and it’s not as simple as increasing serotonin levels for a short time at night helping you sleep better, from what i’ve read…

    1. Lol. I believe this article is right on the money if you take into consideration insulin sensitive people, as in, those who are pre-disposed to getting diabetes at some point in their life.

      Many in my family, eventually suffer from diabetes, and I’ve had personal blood sugar tests which discovered insulin’s hypersensitivity to glucose. Therefore, what happened to me shouldn’t be a revelation, but a month ago, I started slacking with my paleo diet, eating very little in the mornings; protein based foods, sausage and fried onions, or boiled eggs. That was that. Sometimes nothing at all.

      At lunch, I would be very good, eating salad with meat or cheese. A small portion. By the way, I’m not body building. I’m trying to demolish some of the weight I have, not build it.

      Then in the evening, I wouldn’t eat a proper dinner. I would eat what should typically make you put on a load of weight. Things got a little busy for me. I’d eat crisps/chips, chips/fries (UK/US), I wouldn’t eat meat, I would eat very little fat if at all, like cheese, chocolate (not the good stuff, the milk or white chocolate). Didn’t really feel for it, just wanted something sweet.

      So far, I’ve gone from over 90kg to 86kgs. Considering I’m eating all the unhealthy stuff in the evenings, that should be impossible, but if I eat carbs in the day, like at lunch time, I feel tired, struggle to keep my eyes open. I would regularly zone out. That’s not cool. But eating this way, I don’t experience that.

      At minutes to 6 o’clock in the morning, I’m up like a rocket!!! I almost jump up out of bed. Because it’s dark here in London from 7:30AM to 5PM, it’s always dark when you’re at home during the week, so I couldn’t tell you if what time of day it is, so I jump up maybe because of fear of oversleeping, but I don’t think I cared so much before, so who knows.

      So if I had to chart this in some simple form, I would say it like this:

      Breakfast – protein (no or tiny carbs)
      Lunch – low carbs, a little protein and/or fats
      Evening – carbs galore!!!! Just don’t overeat!!!

      I can’t say how things will work for folks who don’t have insulin hypersensitivity, but if diabetes is in your family, and you’ve struggled with weight loss, this way of eating may be more beneficial. Different genes means different ways of eating. I don’t think there’s one right way, but when you find a way that suits you, go for it, and help others whose bodies respond in the same way as yours.

      1. Good luck with that insulin “sensitivity.” The trick is to have minimal carbs 3 or so times a day. If you hold off until night time, or anytime, shoveling all your carbs will result in a very elevated glucose meter response. Hey Gemma. Do ya have a glucose meter? Better get one, if you have diabetes in your family. Crisps? Junk? You will surely get diabetes, if you have the genetic tendency. If you space out your carbs, your blood sugar will remain more stable. This stuff is totally different than a “normal” person with no tendency toward diabetes and who has very normal readings. Oh, and once you’re diabetic, there’s no going back. You can get better and you can reverse those numbers much, much lower, but it will take lots of hard work, dedication and consistency. You can never go back to eating whatever you want. That would be the price you pay. So I suggest you get yourself a glucose meter and see what your numbers are after very high carb intake. If you’re young and numbers look good and you think you’re OK, you’d better think again and research this. Do yourself a favor and ask your doctor. These articles are for normal, healthy, average adults with no tendency towards illness or disease that could happen as a result of these suggestions. Don’t take my word for it. Test yourself! Good luck.

        1. Correct, the participants of this study were normal healthy adults. Furthermore, our target readership is young, healthy, non-diabetic resistance trained individuals. Anyone with any metabolic pathology should always consult their physician, whose advice takes precedence over anything they have read on the internet.

          Look into the differences between insulin magnitude and area under curve.

  2. Of course insulin shuttles aminos, but that’s not the point of the article. If you eat carbs for breakfast then you may well be shuttling aminos, but also shuttling glucose into fat cells. If you’re going to eat carbs, it’s more favourable to have them in the evening.

    “For the record, THE TORM makes a mean espresso.” — Jonny Broz
    “To crush your reps, see PBs before you, and to hear the lamentation of your DOMS” — H-Bomb Trewhitt
  3. @ ben: yeah but surely if insulin sensitivity is greater in morning then you could equally argue it would be better to train in morning because the postworkout carbs will elicit a greater degree of protein synthesis due to the increased transport of aminos into muscle cells? and i don’t think fat gain from carbs is really a concern in the postworkout window.
    personally i think the total daily carbs (and cals) for an individual would have a lot more to do with fat gain/loss then whether you eat them at morning or night. is the difference in insulin sensitivity (between morning and night) significant? and does resistance training not increase insulin sensitivity temporarily anyway?
    it is of course a myth that eating carbs at night makes you fat but don’t believe it’s necessarily the best time to consume your carb intake. john berardi believes the 3 best times to eat carbs are before/after workouts and first meal of the day.

    “For me life is continuously being hungry. The meaning of life is not simply to exist, to survive, but to move ahead, to go up, to achieve, to conquer” – Arnold Schwarzenegger

    “the ones wanting to be ‘toned’ still have bodybuilding goals, they just don’t realise it” – Yusef

  4. What I got from the article was that training allows muscle tissue to absorb glucose via non-insulin mediated transport, so by training in the morning and then eating lots of carbs postworkout, you are still getting several of the benefits, whereas fat cells are less sensitive at night. HOWEVER – Even if fat cells are sensitised to insulin in the mornings, there is research that suggests that to add bodyfat from carbs alone is very difficult.

    and i don’t think fat gain from carbs is really a concern in the postworkout window.

    I’m really undecided if it would make a significant difference, but I guess if you’re more concerned about fat gain then night-training is a safer bet.

    “Yusef LOVES maltodextrin. I’ve seem him bath in it, brush his teeth with it, even bake with it and sculpt into ornamental pieces.” – Jonny

  5. Been doing some reading on this recently:

    The idea is: carbs and fat are shuttled TO a cell by insulin, they are then transported INTO a cell, an adipocyte or muscle cell by GLUT transporters. Carbs are transported by GLUT4.

    GLUT4 can be activated by insulin and by sufficient training stimulus.

    Due to circadian patterns you are insulin sensitive in the first 8-10 hours of waking, with a linear decrease and you are insulin resistant in the evening. So, at night the conditions for nutrient storage are at their worst.

    Therefore, optimally, a glucagon dominant state should be maintained during the first portion of the day.

    Given that training activates GLUT4 and causes the translocation of existing GLUT4 from fat to muscle cells we can create an extremely favourable environment for glycogen storage in muscle cells by backloading carbs in the evening after a training session.

    Optimally, fat should be deprioritized at this time, however, fat can be transported via GLUT mechanisms in a similar manner.

    So Roo: obviously a deficit or surplus cannot be ignored however the hypothesis is that assuming equal calories, nutrients scheduled
    In the above manner will lead to favourable changes in body comp.

  6. So surely if you were not concerned with fat gain and wanted optimal muscle gain you would train and eat in the morning?

    Whereas otherwise its best to eat around when you train?

    What happens if you train in the morning then wait for the evening to eat carbs?

  7. Harrison said:
    So surely if you were not concerned with fat gain and wanted optimal muscle gain you would train and eat in the morning?

    Whereas otherwise its best to eat around when you train?

    I think it’s best to eat around when you train anyway. There are other issues here with morning training, the ratio of testosterone to cortisol is more favourable later in the day. If you want optimal strength or muscle gain, you should probably train in the evening.

    Harrison said:
    What happens if you train in the morning then wait for the evening to eat carbs?

    I’ve done this for several months, following an IF protocol where I would consume only BCAAs peri-workout with one large post-workout meal in the evening.

    The increase in GLUT4 persists for a long time after exercising; and there was a study (on animals) indicating that increased muscle insulin sensitivity lasted for about 48 hours, assuming they remained carbless.

    Protein synthesis continues to increase for over 48-hours. And although protein breakdown increases following resistance training, it eventually drops back to base levels after 48-hours.

  8. You would actually be favouring fat gain – by backloading calories and carbs to post-evening workout you are creating the most anabolic environment possible.

  9. ah cool, cheers for the responses

    im assuming that your post is directed to my first question Jonny.

    I like to train in the afternoon around 6pm and then eat the vast majority of my food afterwards because it is the only time I am actually hungry.

    To Ben and Jonny what are your experiences like with training like this particularly in big movements i.e. squat/deadlift because personally, I have done one or maybe two sessions of smolov “fested” (drinking gatorade + BCAAs + creatine pre and during workout) and I really didn’t feel that bad. I do attribute this to eating loads the night before though.

    I know I could do a moderate workout without eating much beforehand, but I think eating something beforehand helps, at least mentally for big heavy sessions.

    eg porridge + rasisins + banana – few hours later gruelling smolov session – eat 2000calories at mcdonalds – few hours later eat something small at home (could be yoghurt oats and fruit, could be chicken and rice) has been a staple for the 10×3 session over the last few weeks

    on normal days replace mcdonalds with say outrageous amounts of chili + rice + sweet potatoes or roast dinner etc

    thats a typical workout day for me, do you guys think it would actually be better to replace the morning meal with low or zero carbs? And do you also think that doing this would not adversely affect performance?

    the question I am asking myself is how have I barely gained a few kilos eating like this… (started at 92-93kg, weighed 94kg this morning)

    Also, eating like this has made me seriously consider ADF, because I do not feel like eating on rest days until very late in the evening as I am so damn full from the previous day.

  10. There are plenty of studies suggesting that carbs actually decrease performance when eaten before activity
    I find performance is much better with no carbs pre-workout, even with heavy, high volume lifting.
    You could perhaps ingest some simple sugars around 20-30 minutes into the session but the best case is a session at 4-5pm lasting an hour or two with most calories and all carbohydrates consumed after. The leading proponents of this suggest that with a eurocaloric intake you can experience simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain. Obviously this is a lofty claim. However, as I have said in the past, IMO, X kcal vs X kcal with better partitioning will ALWAYS yeild better results in performance and body composition. if it’s as simple as eating carbs in the evening after training, I’d try it.

    Not playing

    “Nobody is gunna hit as hard as life, but it ain’t about how hard you hit, its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward, how much you can take and keep moving forward, thats how winning is done!” – Sylvester Stallone

  11. Harrison said:
    To Ben and Jonny what are your experiences like with training like this particularly in big movements i.e. squat/deadlift because personally, I have done one or maybe two sessions of smolov “fested” (drinking gatorade + BCAAs + creatine pre and during workout) and I really didn’t feel that bad. I do attribute this to eating loads the night before though.

    Nick said:
    what you eat the day before training is more important than what u eat before training
    IMO

    That’s exactly what I felt the big evening meal was, fuel for the morning session the next day (at about 8am). There should be plenty of muscle glycogen and amino acids from that meal still floating about (assuming you eat quite late), with BCAAs to appease the catabolism monster. I experimented with coconut oil or MCT oil before training, following a sort of carb backloading scheme, which I guess answers your other question to some extent. Some sort of protein/fat meal (although I’d avoid eating anything substantial) would be fine, like a scoop of whey with some nuts or something. The fasting should help counteract the effects of a high protein diet by resensitising you to amino acids, so you don’t want to consume a lot of protein and potentially oxidise it all for energy.

  12. If you have to train in the morning:
    No breakfast
    Wo -30: 1 tbsp coconut oil or MCTs (optional but may promote ketone production and stimulate fat burning, BCAAs (10-20g)
    Wo+10: 20-30g short-chain carbs (glucose or near enough), 10-20g BCAAs
    Rest of the day until evening, no carbs ( I would fast ala Ben).
    POUND the coffee – it promotes insulin resistance, thus allowing you to return to the state you want to be in in the evening.
    Evening – eat carbs (lots).
    When following this protocol I would eat maintenance.

    Not playing

    “Nobody is gunna hit as hard as life, but it ain’t about how hard you hit, its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward, how much you can take and keep moving forward, thats how winning is done!” – Sylvester Stallone

  13. the ratio of testosterone to cortisol is more favourable later in the day.

    I always thought higher in the mornings because of morning wood etc., although I guess cortisol is higher too. I checked the research and you’re right. So is it that cortisol drops while testosterone keeps increasing during the day?

  14. From the review paper: Interactions of cortisol, testosterone, and resistance training: influence of circadian rhythms.
    “Optimal adaptations to resistance training (muscle hypertrophy and strength increases) also seem to occur in the late afternoon, which is interesting, since cortisol and, particularly, testosterone (T) concentrations are higher in the morning.”
    “The morning elevated T level (seen as beneficial to achieve muscle hypertrophy) may be counteracted by the morning elevated C level and, therefore, protein degradation. Although T levels are higher in the morning, an increased resistance exercise-induced T response has been found in the late afternoon, suggesting greater responsiveness of the hypothalamo-pituitary-testicular axis then.”
    I’ve seen a few studies suggesting that from a performance perspective mid-morning, about 3-4 hours after waking, and late afternoon are the best times to train. The above review indicates that late afternoon is best out of these two times. Consistency of training time has also been found to be influential.
    Not relevant to this discusion, but I also found this interesting:
    “Individual responsiveness has also been observed, with some participants experiencing greater hypertrophy and strength increases in response to strength protocols, whereas others respond preferentially to power, hypertrophy, or strength endurance protocols dependent on which protocol elicited the greatest T response.”

  15. No, for the following reasons:

    – It’s simpler to just eat nothing, and drink some green tea or coffee during the day.
    – Unless I ate some fibre during the day, I’d be worried that oil would produce some unpleasant gastric side effects (don’t want to rush to the toilet because I’m about to explode with medium chain grimness).
    – I don’t want to take in that many calories if I’m not training, especially not if it will affect fat burning, which it will do by providing an immediate source of energy.
    – It’s expensive to do that, even if there are potential synergisms with GH release.

    I’d rather use MCTs when I spike insulin by ingesting carbs, since they inhibit lipogenesis in the presence of insulin.

  16. Nick said:
    This is confusing

    il just finish my kitkat +mince and hope for the best

    Kitkat chunky? If it was a normal one you are probably going catabolic already.

  17. Nick said:
    This is confusing

    il just finish my kitkat +mince and hope for the best

    Kitkat chunky? If it was a normal one you are probably going catabolic already.

    I don’t even lift.
  18. already finished my pizza + cadbury roses that I ate in the evening to prevent fat gain.

    I am still confused, the article is saying eat your carbs in the afternoon, ie eat P + F all day, but Jonny and Ben are saying dont eat until afternoon (IF, leangains style) effectively.

    Im not convinced that I should do this over the next month or so but I will try it at some point.

  19. Harrison said:
    I am still confused, the article is saying eat your carbs in the afternoon, ie eat P + F all day, but Jonny and Ben are saying dont eat until afternoon (IF, leangains style) effectively.

    It’s the same principle: carb backloading. But whether or not you choose to fast, the principle is the same. I wrote the article without mentioning fasting, because it’s not necessary to get the benefit of eating carbs in the evening.

  20. As usual, agree with Ben. IF and CB compliment each other perfectly but there is no reason you can’t backload carbs while eating during the day. However, I’d say there is certainly enough info to suggest that you should at least be avoiding breakfast.

  21. Ah cool, well I might try basic P+F during the day, carbs post workout in the evening for now then, and when I change program try it with full fasting.

    Would you still apply the guidelines of eating a small amount (ie nuts + whey) or would eating bacon and eggs for breakfast instead of porridge+fruit be alright?

  22. Harrison said:
    Would you still apply the guidelines of eating a small amount (ie nuts + whey) or would eating bacon and eggs for breakfast instead of porridge+fruit be alright?

    Doesn’t matter about food choices, so long as they’re P+F dominant, with let’s say < 10g carbs total (for the sake of argument). If anything I would prefer bacon and eggs to nuts and whey. It’s really a matter of what is convenient. If you are not fasting or following some sort of modified fast then I see no reason to restrict yourself like that.

    I don’t even lift.
  23. I love carbs late at night. On feeding days I have a P+F meal (scrambled eggs, ryvita and soft cheese) and coffee around 8am which means I’m not hungry during the day, then pre-workout porridge/raisins/whey/choco shreddies & coffee at 3-4pm, then training, then I stuff myself all evening. Great fun.
    I think some carbs pre-training are a good idea on ADF, but if eating every day then I agree with Jonny better without.

  24. Ian said:
    I love carbs late at night. On feeding days I have a P+F meal (scrambled eggs, ryvita and soft cheese) and coffee around 8am which means I’m not hungry during the day, then pre-workout porridge/raisins/whey/choco shreddies & coffee at 3-4pm, then training, then I stuff myself all evening. Great fun.

    I think some carbs pre-training are a good idea on ADF, but if eating every day then I agree with Jonny better without.

    you have ryvita in a P+F meal… :S anyway, thought ryvita were for women. taste like shit/cardboard.

  25. ruaidhri said:
    you have ryvita in a P+F meal… :S anyway, thought ryvita were for women. taste like shit/cardboard.

    I have 1-2 ryvita which isn’t exactly carb overload! (about 15g max) Fat and protein are the main components of my breakfast.

  26. Ian said:
    I have 1-2 ryvita which isn’t exactly carb overload! (about 15g max) Fat and protein are the main components of my breakfast.

    you still can’t call it a P+F meal when there is a direct carb source there IMO. after reading papers by john berardi and others, it would seem a P+F meal is one which has only trace indirect carbs.
    edit: i agree that the 8g of carbs from 2 ryvita won’t make a difference i’m just being pedantic as it’s not a true P+F meal.

    “For me life is continuously being hungry. The meaning of life is not simply to exist, to survive, but to move ahead, to go up, to achieve, to conquer” – Arnold Schwarzenegger

    “the ones wanting to be ‘toned’ still have bodybuilding goals, they just don’t realise it” – Yusef

  27. @Ian:
    – I would say even with ADF you can get away with no carbs pre-workout. For most people its completely psychological that they need sugars for optimal training. Unless you’re doing FuckFit then you’re better off avoiding them until after training.

    Regarding the P+F meal with Ryvita: I look at it like this – what does the Ryvita add? Nothing. It simply adds carbs to a meal that is intended to be P+F, there will be more of an insulin release with them than without and I’d guess the reason you include them is because you enjoy them. Pre-training go bodybuilding clean, post-training enter fat-kid heaven IMO.

    @Harrison:
    If you are going to eat during the day I would still shoot for extremely low calories and try to backload calories as well as carbs. Underfeeding has so many positive markers on both health and performance I can only improve the situation. Not to mention, getting in from the gym and pounding food is great.

  28. @Ian:
    – I would say even with ADF you can get away with no carbs pre-workout. For most people its completely psychological that they need sugars for optimal training. Unless you’re doing FuckFit then you’re better off avoiding them until after training.

    Regarding the P+F meal with Ryvita: I look at it like this – what does the Ryvita add? Nothing. It simply adds carbs to a meal that is intended to be P+F, there will be more of an insulin release with them than without and I’d guess the reason you include them is because you enjoy them. Pre-training go bodybuilding clean, post-training enter fat-kid heaven IMO.

    @Harrison:
    If you are going to eat during the day I would still shoot for extremely low calories and try to backload calories as well as carbs. Underfeeding has so many positive markers on both health and performance I can only improve the situation. Not to mention, getting in from the gym and pounding food is great.

  29. @Johnny: I may, on my lean bulk, backload carbs til after training but don’t think I will backload cals. However I don’t think I will use this as an excuse to eat crap. Do you really not think it makes a difference what type of carb is consumed?

  30. @Ian:
    – I would say even with ADF you can get away with no carbs pre-workout. For most people its completely psychological that they need sugars for optimal training. Unless you’re doing FuckFit then you’re better off avoiding them until after training.
    Regarding the P+F meal with Ryvita: I look at it like this – what does the Ryvita add? Nothing. It simply adds carbs to a meal that is intended to be P+F, there will be more of an insulin release with them than without and I’d guess the reason you include them is because you enjoy them. Pre-training go bodybuilding clean, post-training enter fat-kid heaven IMO.

    Thing is I find the oats pre-workout do make me feel more energised but I’m willing to accept this is psychological. Put simply I enjoy sitting down of an afternoon with a fresh pot of coffee and huge bowl of porridge oats and it still leaves loads of calories for post workout.
    I’d say I do for the most part go by the mantra of eating “clean” during the day before training and not having any bagels/cake/ice cream till last thing at night after dinner. I’d feel rotten otherwise.
    Re ryvita: I eat them purely because its something crunchy to spread my philadelphia (very thickly!) on which is relatively low in carbs/cals. It may be far from optimal but given I spend 3 days/week totally fasted I’m willing accept the trade-off. Surely the insulin spike from a couple of ryvita isn’t exactly significant anyway? I could well be wrong though.

  31. @Johnny: I may, on my lean bulk, backload carbs til after training but don’t think I will backload cals. However I don’t think I will use this as an excuse to eat crap. Do you really not think it makes a difference what type of carb is consumed?

    I think, if you do it properly, it will be difficult to not backload calories to an extent.
    If you’re eating all of your carbs in a short space of time there is no point in worrying about GI index etc. The GI of a food matters only if it is consumed on its own anyway – add butter to bread, you just altered the GI. In terms of body comp, I honestly think coco-pops = rice, haribo = sweet potato etc etc. I would say there may be some difference if you pound gluten heavy confectionary over rice and sweet potato as the inflammatory affects may cause sub-par digestion and reduce the bioavailability, equally, if someone chooses doughnuts as a carb source, clearly there’s a healthy dose of fat with it as well and I do think types of fat matter when it comes to body comp. So, no it doesnt matter, as long as the principle isn’t taken out of context and abused.

    @Ian: If your adherence is better with that set up, I’d stick at it. My point was more that if you’re including Ryvita just because you like them its maybe no the best idea. Will 2 ryvita adversely affect insulin in this context? Id say so but in the grand scheme of things I wouldn’t sweat it.

    However, if you’re looking to lose fat and eating 6-8 small meals a day, 6 small servings of haribo obviously isn’t great – in this instance you should go for more complex sources of carbohydrate. That said I would never suggest 6 small meals a day to anyone.

  32. @Johnny: I may, on my lean bulk, backload carbs til after training but don’t think I will backload cals. However I don’t think I will use this as an excuse to eat crap. Do you really not think it makes a difference what type of carb is consumed?

    I think, if you do it properly, it will be difficult to not backload calories to an extent.
    If you’re eating all of your carbs in a short space of time there is no point in worrying about GI index etc. The GI of a food matters only if it is consumed on its own anyway – add butter to bread, you just altered the GI. In terms of body comp, I honestly think coco-pops = rice, haribo = sweet potato etc etc. I would say there may be some difference if you pound gluten heavy confectionary over rice and sweet potato as the inflammatory affects may cause sub-par digestion and reduce the bioavailability, equally, if someone chooses doughnuts as a carb source, clearly there’s a healthy dose of fat with it as well and I do think types of fat matter when it comes to body comp. So, no it doesnt matter, as long as the principle isn’t taken out of context and abused.
    @Ian: If your adherence is better with that set up, I’d stick at it. My point was more that if you’re including Ryvita just because you like them its maybe no the best idea. Will 2 ryvita adversely affect insulin in this context? Id say so but in the grand scheme of things I wouldn’t sweat it.

    Not playing

    “Nobody is gunna hit as hard as life, but it ain’t about how hard you hit, its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward, how much you can take and keep moving forward, thats how winning is done!” – Sylvester Stallone

  33. Jonny said: Will 2 ryvita adversely affect insulin in this context? Id say so

    ffs I am trying to stick up for you guys in another thread about sweating minutia and you are saying 2 rivita will actually make a difference.
    they are made of cardboard, they don’t actually contain any macronutrients other than balsa wood.
    fml
    rofl

    Yusef: “I’m definitely prone to being intimidated by 4 plates/200kg etc. Would you say best way to get over that is to train with higher frequency or without mirrors?”
    Marc: “Best way to not get intimidated is to man up and get on with it.”

  34. but in the grand scheme of things I wouldn’t sweat it.

    What I meant: Its carbs, it affects insulin, but dont worry about it, it wont make a difference.
    EDIT: thanks for the support.
    EDIT: Maybe we should be backloading balsa wood as well

    Not playing

    “Nobody is gunna hit as hard as life, but it ain’t about how hard you hit, its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward, how much you can take and keep moving forward, thats how winning is done!” – Sylvester Stallone

  35. lol I was jk, I just thought it was a funny sentence and I was in with misappropriation quote.

    If you were fasting, would 2 rivita actually be sufficient to ruin the effects of fasting?

  36. mmmm backloading rich mahogany

    I backload work on a regular basis, but I do this weekly or monthly rather than just daily. I find it lowers cortisol levels and consolidates them into a single monthly manageable peak.

  37. Harrison said:
    mmmm backloading rich mahogany

    I backload work on a regular basis, but I do this weekly or monthly rather than just daily. I find it lowers cortisol levels and consolidates them into a single monthly manageable peak.

    lol, too true. Although I find if backloaded for too it will eventually result in a massive catabolism fast that will destroy any advantages.


  38. @Ian: If your adherence is better with that set up, I’d stick at it. My point was more that if you’re including Ryvita just because you like them its maybe no the best idea. Will 2 ryvita adversely affect insulin in this context? Id say so but in the grand scheme of things I wouldn’t sweat it.

    Thanks for clearing that up, the way I see it I’m into a routine, enjoy eating, am getting stronger and gaining weight at a fairly gradual rate (5lbs in last 3 weeks) so I’m happy with how things are for now and won’t, like you say, sweat the implications of eating 2 ryvita at breakfast.

  39. Finding it hard to get my head around carb backloading combined with fasting.
    Whether it’s IF or ADF you’re going to end up eating some pretty big meals with very large quantities of macronutrients to get everything down in a short space of time right? Combine that with separating out fat and carb meals and don’t you end up with absolutely ridiculous quantities of fats or carbs in a meal? Maybe it’s just because I’m not used to eating like that but I can’t imagine eating a meal with say 300g of carbs at once. Is that what you guys do?
    Say I want to eat 200g protein, 600g carbs and 90g fat, backloading carbs while doing IF, would it look something like this?
    Wo -30: MCT, BCAAs (10-20g)
    2pm – Training
    Wo+10: 20-30g glucose 10-20g BCAAs
    3.30pm – 50-60g protein, 10g carbs, 70g fat
    6.00pm – 50-60g protein, 280g carbs, 10g fat
    8.30pm – 50-60g protein, 280g carbs, 10g fat
    I like the idea in theory but I think I’d probably spend the second half of the day feeling like crap. I think I’d also struggle to eat two 280g carb meals in a short space of time.
    As a side note I’ve done a few 32 hours fasts recently and am really liking it so far. Tried going EOD but that’s a bit too frequently for me as I don’t like having to eat so much food on the days in between. I might start doing one or two long fasts a week though.

  40. This is what I do CJC:

    -Upon waking: 2 shots espresso, tsp double cream
    -training 1-2 hours later, aminos ingested prior.
    maybe another coffee or two later in the day, lots of water and green tea
    Wo-90mins: small P+F meal (<1000kcal)
    Wo-10mins: Start workout nutrition
    Post-workout until 9-10pm I eat all of my carbs and most of my calories (ends up at nearly 3000kcal)

    – in terms of fitting it into your schedule, its easy.

  41. Jonny said:
    This is what I do CJC:

    -Upon waking: 2 shots espresso, tsp double cream
    -training 1-2 hours later, aminos ingested prior.
    maybe another coffee or two later in the day, lots of water and green tea
    Wo-90mins: small P+F meal (<1000kcal)
    Wo-10mins: Start workout nutrition
    Post-workout until 9-10pm I eat all of my carbs and most of my calories (ends up at nearly 3000kcal)

    – in terms of fitting it into your schedule, its easy.

    What happened to eating 7000cals? Are you still ADFing?

  42. Jonny said:
    This is what I do CJC:
    -Upon waking: 2 shots espresso, tsp double cream
    -training 1-2 hours later, aminos ingested prior.
    maybe another coffee or two later in the day, lots of water and green tea
    Wo-90mins: small P+F meal (<1000kcal)
    Wo-10mins: Start workout nutrition
    Post-workout until 9-10pm I eat all of my carbs and most of my calories (ends up at nearly 3000kcal)
    – in terms of fitting it into your schedule, its easy.

    That looks a lot more manageable. Interesting that you’re not training fasted any more either, are you assuming that you’ll still get some of the benefits of fasted training simply by avoiding carbs pre-wo?
    When you say a small P+F meal what sort of macros are you talking? <1000kcal is a pretty massive range for one meal. 100g protein and 60g fat would be <1000kcal, I’d consider that a huge p/f meal.

  43. I train twice, once fasted in the morning, the second time I train fed.

    The meal is rarely 1000kcal, that is just an upper bound.

    Yesterday it was around 600kcal
    60g protein, 40g fat.
    Eggs, feta cheese, lean bacon and some liquid fish oil.

    I feel the same in both sessions so yea, the P+F meal mimics the psychological state of a fasted session. I wouldn’t want to train fasted twice for obvious reasons so this is a compromise.

    As always, I’m always swapping and changing, really likes ADF but giving it a rest for a while.

  44. I train twice, once fasted in the morning, the second time I train fed.

    The meal is rarely 1000kcal, that is just an upper bound.

    Yesterday it was around 600kcal
    60g protein, 40g fat.
    Eggs, feta cheese, lean bacon and some liquid fish oil.

    I feel the same in both sessions so yea, the P+F meal mimics the psychological state of a fasted session. I wouldn’t want to train fasted twice for obvious reasons so this is a compromise.

    As always, I’m always swapping and changing, really likes ADF but giving it a rest for a while.

  45. Jonny said:
    [

    I think, if you do it properly, it will be difficult to not backload calories to an extent.
    If you’re eating all of your carbs in a short space of time there is no point in worrying about GI index etc. The GI of a food matters only if it is consumed on its own anyway – add butter to bread, you just altered the GI. In terms of body comp, I honestly think coco-pops = rice, haribo = sweet potato etc etc. I would say there may be some difference if you pound gluten heavy confectionary over rice and sweet potato as the inflammatory affects may cause sub-par digestion and reduce the bioavailability, equally, if someone chooses doughnuts as a carb source, clearly there’s a healthy dose of fat with it as well and I do think types of fat matter when it comes to body comp. So, no it doesnt matter, as long as the principle isn’t taken out of context and abused.

    yeah obviously by backloading carbs i will also be backloading cals to some extent but my carbs won’t really be high anyway, planning to slowly increase carbs to minimise fat gains and keep the ratio of lbm gain:fat gain as optimal as possible.

    i agree that the GI of carbs doesn’t really matter when mixed with fat, but does protein alter the GI much? if it did then what would be the point of having fast digesting carbs with your pwo whey.

    i think the importance of GI of carbs is vastly overstated so I agree with you there but I’m not sure I’d go as far to say as it doesn’t matter at all.

  46. I think I’d also struggle to eat two 280g carb meals in a short space of time.

    Remember it’s not meant to be ‘clean’ carbs, you could definitely do it with my two staples (juice and cake).

    As a side note I’ve done a few 32 hours fasts recently and am really liking it so far. Tried going EOD but that’s a bit too frequently for me as I don’t like having to eat so much food on the days in between. I might start doing one or two long fasts a week though.

    Appetite will start to go up after a week or so of ADFing.

  47. yeah obviously by backloading carbs i will also be backloading cals to some extent but my carbs won’t really be high anyway, planning to slowly increase carbs to minimise fat gains and keep the ratio of lbm gain:fat gain as optimal as possible.

    i agree that the GI of carbs doesn’t really matter when mixed with fat, but does protein alter the GI much? if it did then what would be the point of having fast digesting carbs with your pwo whey.

    i think the importance of GI of carbs is vastly overstated so I agree with you there but I’m not sure I’d go as far to say as it doesn’t matter at all.

    Why will slowly increasing carbs minimise fat gain?

    Protein will to an extent. I think using whey + carbs as a counter-example isn’t correct, whey is one of the quickest sources of protein to digest, we’re discussing whole foods.

    Why do you think it matters?

  48. Jonny said:
    Why will slowly increasing carbs minimise fat gain?
    Protein will to an extent. I think using whey + carbs as a counter-example isn’t correct, whey is one of the quickest sources of protein to digest, we’re discussing whole foods.
    Why do you think it matters?

    you didn’t specify it was whole foods only. let’s say chicken then, it’s also fast digesting (admittedly not nearly as fast digesting as whey, but fast digesting for a whole food). do you not think chicken and rice would promote a lesser insulin spike than the same amount of chicken and a bowl of frosties/pack of haribo?
    the reason i think it MAY matter (I really don’t know, just hypothesising) is that a higher insulin response will promote more fat gain. immediately after workouts this won’t be a concern but a couple of hours later it could be.
    re. slowly increasing carbs… i don’t see the point in starting on large amount of cals straight away. i’ll gain more fat than necessary. better to taper up cals, increasing cals/carbs when weight and strength gains stop/slow down.

    “For me life is continuously being hungry. The meaning of life is not simply to exist, to survive, but to move ahead, to go up, to achieve, to conquer” – Arnold Schwarzenegger

    “the ones wanting to be ‘toned’ still have bodybuilding goals, they just don’t realise it” – Yusef

  49. Says on the DH forums that its going to be released tomorrow.

    “Passion has a funny way of trumping logic” – Vince Lombardi

  50. Craggsy said:
    Lol. I believe this article is right on the money if you take into consideration insulin sensitive people, as in, those who are pre-disposed to getting diabetes at some point in their life.

    Many in my family, eventually suffer from diabetes, and I’ve had personal blood sugar tests which discovered insulin’s hypersensitivity to glucose. Therefore, what happened to me shouldn’t be a revelation, but a month ago, I started slacking with my paleo diet, eating very little in the mornings; protein based foods, sausage and fried onions, or boiled eggs. That was that. Sometimes nothing at all.

    At lunch, I would be very good, eating salad with meat or cheese. A small portion. By the way, I’m not body building. I’m trying to demolish some of the weight I have, not build it.

    Then in the evening, I wouldn’t eat a proper dinner. I would eat what should typically make you put on a load of weight. Things got a little busy for me. I’d eat crisps/chips, chips/fries (UK/US), I wouldn’t eat meat, I would eat very little fat if at all, like cheese, chocolate (not the good stuff, the milk or white chocolate). Didn’t really feel for it, just wanted something sweet.

    So far, I’ve gone from over 90kg to 86kgs. Considering I’m eating all the unhealthy stuff in the evenings, that should be impossible, but if I eat carbs in the day, like at lunch time, I feel tired, struggle to keep my eyes open. I would regularly zone out. That’s not cool. But eating this way, I don’t experience that.

    At minutes to 6 o’clock in the morning, I’m up like a rocket!!! I almost jump up out of bed. Because it’s dark here in London from 7:30AM to 5PM, it’s always dark when you’re at home during the week, so I couldn’t tell you if what time of day it is, so I jump up maybe because of fear of oversleeping, but I don’t think I cared so much before, so who knows.

    So if I had to chart this in some simple form, I would say it like this:

    Breakfast – protein (no or tiny carbs)
    Lunch – low carbs, a little protein and/or fats
    Evening – carbs galore!!!! Just don’t overeat!!!

    I can’t say how things will work for folks who don’t have insulin hypersensitivity, but if diabetes is in your family, and you’ve struggled with weight loss, this way of eating may be more beneficial. Different genes means different ways of eating. I don’t think there’s one right way, but when you find a way that suits you, go for it, and help others whose bodies respond in the same way as yours.

    Pleased to see you’re experiencing practical results with this! Have you noticed a marked improvement in body composition?

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